I guess I’m on a roll. It also strikes me as funny when someone will tell a student how incredibly different their reach schools are from each other. But, for example, my husband grew up in a small town on the Texas coast. Pretty much any Ivy League, T20 school on the east coast would be put in the same group when comparing them to TAMU Corpus Christi, Blinn, or even TAMU College Station. They are selective colleges on the east coast all of which are in more populated areas than where he grew up.
My son’s T20 was for engineering so slightly different list but top 10 was close enough.
If left up to him he would of applied to 6 schools with most in the top 10.
I made him look past that and research and apply to at least one school from 10-20, 21-29, 31 _-39 till 50. Yes great schools past 50 also so no need to say this.
What he found was absolutely great schools that ended up being matches and safeties but schools with great programs and values /fit he was looking for. He did get into 3/6 at the top but all the schools below 20 with great merit also. Yes not the same list since he was looking at engineering but the same point.
It’s truly amazing how many great colleges there are out there. With my daughter at a small LAC she was abroad with kids from the Ivys and other single digit schools. She didn’t feel her education was any different in her field of study. Same with my son when he got together with kids from Stanford /Harvard etc for a weekend event.
BTW - seems no matter what schools these kids go to… They all seem to like Pizza ??.
Thanks for the link @privatebanker . Just listened to four of the podcasts. Very insightful. I thought the overall most useful one was #1, The current Sate of College Admissions.
How does one figure out what a certain college is looking for (especially if the student lives far away)?
I think the key point here is time and expense. Of course unhooked kids have a chance to get in to these schools, but the chances are much lower than the published admit rates. For us, spending the time and $ to visit schools whose admit rates for unhooked kids are so minuscule is a bad use of scarce resources. We’ll visit matches and safeties and let the kids apply to reaches sight unseen - they have plenty of time to visit if they win the admissions lottery.
How many admission offers do the T40 colleges generate every year?
Brown makes around 2500-3000 offers per year.
If that is typical, then the T40 collectively must be generating - very roughly - around
100K offers per year.
Now, how many students score above 1400 on the SATs each year (or above ~31 on the ACT) … AND ALSO
… rank in their HS T10%, with rigorous courses
AND ALSO
… have interesting EC records
AND ALSO
… will even apply to T40 colleges
AND ALSO
… can deliver a well-prepared application package on time, with good recommendations
AND ALSO
… can afford (one way or another) to attend, if accepted
AND ALSO
… *have significant “hooks” *
Consider data for SAT scores alone. In 2017, fewer than 85K students (~5% of test-takers) scored 1400-1600 (source: https://reports.collegeboard.org/pdf/2017-total-group-sat-suite-assessments-annual-report.pdf). Of all SAT test-takers, about 223K ranked in their HS highest tenth … but even among these highest-ranking students, the mean SAT score was only 1232. For ~105K “A+” students, the mean SAT score still was only 1254.
So I suspect that the number of students who meet all these criteria (including basic qualifications, willingness to apply, ability to afford, and hooks) is much less than ~100K per year. Sure, many of them apply to more than one “T40” school. But in the end, each of them can occupy only one spot.
My conclusion? There seem to be enough “T40” spots (for well-qualified - but unhooked - students who want and can afford them) to make a few well-considered applications worthwhile.
Not true. Most of high stat kids get into several T40, not necessarily quota oriented Ivies but schools with academic focus like Berkeley, Hopkins, Rice, CMU, CalTech are really interested in high stat kids.
Students with tippy top high stat are very bright and it reflects in their extracurriculars as well even if it’s not their main focus.
@OceanIsle. Run this like a business, I guess. What’s your best Roi? Is paying $1,000 to fly out and spend a few days worth it for 1 one school? We always tried to bunch schools by region when my daughter went looking at East Coast Lacs. We rented a car and from Chicago to the East coast saw schools of interest and made it part school hunt /part vacation. Very economical this way. Fun and decent ROI.
@OceanIsle In terms of understanding what a school is looking for, there are several approaches. First, google “Common Data Set” for every school of interest. Not all schools publish these, but many do. The Common Data Set is a treasure trove of info, including what components of the application are ranked “Very Important” “Important” “Considered” or “Not Considered.” You can also find the breakdown of admissions stats, can often (but not always) recalculate the regular decision acceptance rate by backing out the ED acceptances from the overall acceptance rate. Also useful is the info on merit awards, how many are given, size etc.
Then, spend time on the website – what does the “front page” emphasize? How does the school talk about its students? Some schools emphasize teamwork, collaboration and community, others emphasize the quirky individual (this opportunity to understand the student personality is often more pronounced at LACs than large universities). Especially for LACs, there is a lot of opportunity to shape the themes of an application to align with a school’s values, from how the personal statement is written to what recommenders emphasize in their letters.
^ That’s what we did because I did not feel it was worth the time and money to visit the super reach schools prior to acceptance and S19 was not interested in visiting. While that does make it more difficult to write essays reflecting how a student might be a good fit, you can still do the research to get a feel for what things are important to a college. Still, it’s not easy to understand the process. S19 applied to three Ivy league schools. The one that we thought was a great fit for him was where he was wait listed, and the one where I was sure he wouldn’t get in accepted him!
College of the Holy Cross #27 in LACs
Fordham #74 in National universities
I think one needs to have an open mind and a willingness to try to put the pieces together. Not excuses or how it’s too hard. You wanna be top quality…then there’s effort needed.
Few GCs will know enough about a variety of colleges- and that’s the same for pro counselors, too. They know what has worked for their advising style. Plus, the marketing aspect, what will make you oh-so-sure that pro counselor, with the hefty fees, has the magic formula and you should pay for it.
Sniff around for what Duke looks for, it’s pretty straight up. In contrast, Harvard’s is confusing. You can take some pieces from what H does say, but it takes some work to interpret.
Key is, you have to be reading as much as you can that the college says or shows. That’s not to be confused with what USNews or Forbes say, or some pro advisor’s blog or other 3rd party musings. Don’t assume they speak for the colleges.
And it still escapes me how the CDS helps. All those bullets are important to a top holistic. All.
More top colleges are now mentioning “intellectual curiosity.” That’s not a throwaway line and Betty doesn’t score for saying, oh how interested she’ll be in x or x, once in college. Or naming courses. . It has to manifest in the record. That’s not unilateral or just doing what you want. Think about it.
Do look at Duke. Find what they look for.
- Read the website. But don't just read it. Comb through it. Get a feel for it. Almost all websites convey the vibe of the place.
- Visit. Attend the info sessions. Talk to students.
The most important thing to remember is this: The admissions process at highly selective colleges is not a zero-based exercise. They do not read all the applications and then pick “the best.” The “roles” are laid out in advance. Each application is reviewed with an eye toward filling roles. Like casting a play.
I agree with @brantly on attending the info sessions when you visit. Often times on CC poster swill say the info sessions are a waste of time, and while all are no created equally, you can almost always pick up some nugget of info on what they look for.
And take it seriously. For instance at Wesleyan, they say that 85% of admitted students have taken calculus in high school. What they are telling you is that if you are really interested in the school, then take calculus!
As others have stated, being strategic is key. So many kids on this site seek counsel, then totally disregard it when it is given. I think high stats students who present an application that reeks of authenticity and portrays characteristics that the university values, stand an excellent chance.
Please feel free not to apply. Gives my D a better chance.
Mine applied to LACS…14 of them with 11 being top 40. She was high stat with solid music talent as the only possible hook. She got into all of them with one WL (at a lower ranked LAC…yield protection maybe who knows). Cast a wide net you never know.
But don’t cast that wide net without knowing what they want. It’s hard to give them your “best” when you have little or no idea what that is.
“Solid musical talent”, in my book, isn’t really a “hook”. It is a qualification. A “hook” is something one is born with and does nothing to acquire. Like URM or legacy status. Or being born into a family wealthy enough to make a huge donation. Or coming from an under-represented location.
So, @Veryapparent’s kid seems to illustrate that many spaces are available for qualified but unhooked applicants. 11 must cover nearly all the LACs among the 40 most selective schools.