Other things to look for when researching:
Read a school’s mission and vision statements. Lots of valuable information about their focus.
Look up the four year plan of study. Look at the details.
Read the student newspapers. See what’s happening on campus.
Here is what parents are really paying for when sending their kids to certain well-connected elite prep schools. They have dedicated college counseling staffs who can match students to the highly selective colleges that are most likely to see the student as a good match. Note that this does not mean what the student initially sees as his/her target, but the college counselors will steer the student away from unrealistic dreams of HYPSM (except for the very few where these may be realistic) to other highly selective colleges where s/he will be a fit from the colleges’ points of view. And then guide the student through the application process to package himself/herself optimally for those colleges (including such things as SAT subject tests, which teachers to select for the best recommendations for the student and target colleges, essay guidance, etc.).
The student in the public school with an overworked counselor may be lucky to get a reminder to take the SAT or ACT and some information about the state flagship and the nearby non-flagship state universities and community colleges. Of course, s/he can still apply to highly selective colleges, but must either (a) find out what they really want beyond the baseline academic stats and generalities on their web sites (as some advocate they do, assuming that the information can be found by non-connected non-insiders), or (b) apply in a “lottery” or “dartboard” fashion with the best application that they can make, hoping that it matches what those colleges are looking for. Obviously, those who can do (a) are likely to have a much higher success rate, but such students are likely very few, even among the admission classes. It is likely that the admission classes include lots of those who did (b) and just got lucky that they were what the college was looking for.
Note also that what the college sees a match is often the opposite of what students see as a match, since students often see themselves as matching the college’s student stereotype (or are attracted to its top-ranked major or whatever) when the college really wants to diversify its students away from the stereotype (or unburden the oversubscribed major while giving other departments students to teach).
The risk is that oversimplifies. And we’ve got enough trouble from that, to begin with. Any neophyte who digs into the web sites of various colleges can find what they seem to emphasize, can identify differences. IF they make the effort. It does not take the repeated comment that one needs to be some “connected insider.” (I personally find that offensive to the kids, the assumption they caaaan’t. You act like kids not at elite preps are blindfolded, never explored something new as part of the high school experience, are helpless.) But when one expects a T40 (the context noted by OP,) one does need to be able, in all ways. Or, it’s not a match to those colleges’ expectations a kid applies in an informed way. Strike One.
I have to wonder, among the naysayers, who has put in this effort, tried it. (Or participated in anything at their kids 'high schools, to do with college apps.) It’s a mistake to assume elite preps hold a kid’s hand through the entire college admit process, from A to Z. There are responsiilites on the part of those highly able kids.
Or that all the rest of US high schools can barely remind kids of test dates. Plenty of parents here have kids in a range of high schools, with various needs and emphases. It’s not a completely either/or situation.
But note that this particular thread sub-argument always reverts to kids so unable to find any accurate info that they’re reduced to applying in “lottery or dartboard fashion.” Do you truly think that’s the case for the bulk of CC? (We’re the ones holding this conversation, parents can tell their own various experiences with GCs and districts.) You assume they and their kids know nothing? All they can do is identify a few names, filll out an app, and pray?We weren’t talking about all the striving, subpar hs out there. Rather, the sorts of strengths and traits that make a T40 a viable choice. That’s dependent on the individual, his or her efforts.
@lookingforward , you have a perspective that most of us here don’t have. You’re on the inside looking out, which is why you necessarily emphasize fit above all. We mere mortals have to use whatever means we can to understand what a given school is looking for.?
There is value, IMO, of looking at the CDS, especially if a kid wants an understanding of what the college does consider. It’s worth knowing that Duke considers interest, State residency, and religious affiliation and Harvard considers none of those things. It’s worth knowing that Duke regards GPA, talent, and test scores as Very Important, while Harvard merely Considers them. At the very least, being aware of the CDS will give a student a better understanding of the college and of how he might stack up against his competition.
If a student isn’t hitting something considered Very Important, for example, it doesn’t mean they shouldn’t apply. It does mean they should understand they might be facing more of an uphill battle than perhaps some other applicants. It means they can perhaps emphasize a different part of the application.
The CDS is another resource, and kids who are doing their research should avail themselves of it. It’s clear and easy to understand, and is more tangible than determining fit. I do feel that if a student fits, it’s not because they are “making” themselves fit. It’s because the fit is already there and they are able to show it effectively. Of course more goes into showing fit than just looking at the CDS.
A student needs to do his homework and discover what colleges value and look for. I think there are many high stats kids who don’t get into top colleges because they don’t fit, no matter how good their app is. Maybe if they considered applying to more match and safety schools, those could be their fits, instead of just applying to the Top 20 in USNWR.
There is a wealth of information here. Much appreciated! It seems that once a student checks the box of high-enough grades and test scores, these other parts of the app become arguably more influential in an admissions decision than the grades/test scores were.
But the reality is, students who cannot score high enough usually do not make it past an initial round unless they have something compelling about them. This is reasonable, since aptitude will be required in the classrooms of these schools, learning among some amazing talent.
With that in mind, what ACT/SAT score is “high enough” for the average-excellent student? At what point should the student take his score and put that component of the app to rest in order to work on other hobbies, talents, essays or skills? Is there a score that generally says to the Admissions Officer at a T40 or T20, “Yep, okay got it, now on to the essays?”
Of course every school is different, but if you were advising a student…what is a realistic goal for a an SAT/ACT score that will suffice (assuming high GPA in a rigorous-enough schedule)?
Conventional wisdom on CC usually says a minimum of 32 ACT/1450 SAT. Of course, if you look at the CDS for a tippy top like Stanford, as an example, you will see that the average student got something like a 33/1500. Bear in mind though, that the top 75th of accepted students had 35/1550. For an unhooked average excellent applicant, it’s probably safe to assume that you ideally want to be in the top 75th percentile.
As you are probably now aware, the test score is just one of many factors and, unless it’s really low (assuming the kid is applying to Stanford, I suggest that anything below 32/1450 is “really low”) is probably not a deal-breaker on its own.
For “what the school is looking for”, there are lots of clues. Admissions folks write blogs. Look at the students profiled on the website. Check out the social media to see what they are focusing on as they project themselves out into the world. See if you can look at alumni magazines online. All of this reflects what they are proud of as well as who they want to be.
I can think of one school that regularly features students and that what comes through is that they are all very engaged and in different things. It is a school where an applicant who is a real “do-ers” and who has varied interests/talents who be appreciated.
Another seems to put out a lot about community service. They aren’t just saying they want you to have done it; they like kids who are really committed to it.
I think this is less stats oriented than the CDS (always a good place to start!) but very important.
With fit, it’s about finding it and highlighting it. Not making yourself into what you think they want to see.
I haven’t read all the comments, but I’d like to add that in part it will come down to what you mean by an “average excellent student.” There’s a difference between the kid with a 3.9 GPA and 1500 SAT who keeps his or her head down and goes about his/her business, and the kid with the same stats who is actively interested in the world in a way that can be articulated in an essay, and has found an activity or group that he/she is passionate about. There is also a difference between the kid who slinks by on natural talent, and the kid who actively participates in class, and the kid who takes the hardest classes and the one who doesn’t. You know your child best and are in the best position to discover where is an appropriate landing point.
Our personal journey: My unhooked daughter concluded that Amherst was the perfect school for her, for a variety of reasons, was able to articulate it, applied ED, and was accepted. We think the key was that she was able to demonstrate that she would be a good fit, that she had researched WHY she would be a good fit, and we presume her LORs from her teachers backed that up. Good luck!
The higher within the tier (and we’re still talking T40?, which is pretty broad,) you should aim for 750/750. Adcoms look at the separate M and CR scores. And not just ACT Composite, but the subscores. Yes, it’s confusing that they report Composite, but obviously subs are where you show your strengths, per your stated interests. This idea they are satisfied enough with some middle range score forgets the fierce nature of the competition. Excellent chance a 1450 (however it breaks down,) simply won’t cut through the competition for Stanford. Face it: if that 1450 is 800/650, you have a problem with the 650. A problem that could keep you out. No one should be so smitten by random anecdotes that they misinterpret the basics.
“knowing that Duke regards GPA, talent, and test scores as Very Important, while Harvard merely Considers them.” (What’s that even mean?) ALL have to hit the mark. Being stronger in academic factors in no way overrides the need to ace the other factors, too. So what does one really learn from the CDS?
No saying some category is truly and functionally less important at Harvard than for Duke just because some person at some desk labelled using different words. And contrast that with Duke’s actual, “What we look for.” Don’t assume a problem with ECs is “okay” at H because it’s only “Considered.” Don’t think Duke scrutinizes ECs harder than Harvard just because they say “Very important.”
Btw, “religion” is “affiliation and commitment.” Not simply that you are a member of some religion, but how committed and active, in ways the college finds significant, impactful. More than going to services. Religious engagement is a legit place for out of the classroom experiences.
@Lindagaf I try to make the point, when needed, that it’s not my experience with one (fiercely competitve) college that allows me- or anyone- to “scope out” what many colleges are looking for. I did it for my girls, have done it out of curiosity, and done it *with/i some hs kids who pm me. I do resist the notion this is so utterly challenging that a “non-connected non-insider” cannot do it. Or that one has to be at an elite prep and have adults do it for you.
How hard is it to interpret this: “Bowdoin seeks students who are bright and engaged inside and outside the classroom, and who demonstrate curiosity and a willingness to take intellectual risks.” The simpler thinkers might say, “Goodie! I’m curious, I ask questions.” But you have to demonstrate that curiosity in your record, have evidence that you do take intellectual risks. (Eg, not just taking AP stats or enviro, just to pump up the number of AP. )You need to be able to interpret what it means- or, sorry, perhaps your skill level might thrive at a less competitive college.
What exactly is so hard about this tha folks argue it can’tbe done? Or in a final bout of frustration, that it’s all a sham?
Where my specific experience does come in is knowing how many kids, despite being top performers, flub their apps. Oh, sure, Duke may call academics Very Important, but did the kid sleepwalk through the rest?
One method I have found helpful is to take notes at info sessions. If you just sit there and listen, it seems basic, straightforward, and no different from any other info session you’ve sat through. But when you take notes and later compare them to notes you took at other college info sessions, I found it really differentiates the colleges. Things become clear.
DD started doing this too (without me telling her too!), when the reps visit her high school on the lunch hours.
It isn’t the only tool in the toolbox, but we have found it useful.
@lookingforward , good explanation. Of course not hitting the mark in anything that’s “considered” is a problem, regardless of the college. They make it clear what they consider. At any rate, you bring up another good point: all applicants can look at the college’s “what we look for” page too.
There’s a logical explanation for that. Education is dumbed down. 20 years ago, scoring perfect on the SAT would make the evening news. Now, any kid in the top 15% can do it. It’s the same with grade inflation. A 3.5 is considered almost average now. So now, you have a bunch of above average kids, misled into thinking they’re geniuses, applying to elite schools in masses. It’s not to say that these kids aren’t smart, you just can’t trust the results of our school system.
OP, lookingforward brought up a great point too about how colleges look at test scores.
Using my kid as an example, he got 1480 on the SAT. That was broken down to 790 on math and 690 on EBRW. He took the ACT and got 34. If I recall, he scored 31 in Math, 33 in English, 35 in Reading and Science. The EBRW was problematic on the SAT, and the 31 in Math was problematic on the ACT, so he submitted both scores.
He applied to two high reaches which are Top 40 and didn’t get in, though he did get offered a transfer option to one of them. Who knows if the test scores made a difference? (They probably didn’t, because I freely admit he had a legacy connection. But I’m sure the scores didn’t hurt, either.) At the very least, the two scores showed he had similar abilities in his tests.
“How hard is it to interpret this: “Bowdoin seeks students who are bright and engaged inside and outside the classroom, and who demonstrate curiosity and a willingness to take intellectual risks.””
@lookingforward I really liked your example. Notice it says students who “are”… . I think that comes through on certain applications and few have the ability to create that look. I see kids who ask “what can I do?”. I think the better question is “who am I and how do I communicate that?”. I think if you have a good sense of who you are you can find a school that matches you, you will have a much better chance at acceptance than attempting to be what you think a school wants. It won’t always work but it will make it less pointless.
@ucbalumnus Your characterization of public schools fits perhaps the ones that serve lower income communities. It does not characterize the many which serve middle class or more affluent communities. The difference in acceptances to the most “elite” colleges from expensive private high schools has more to do with the fact that they have a very high percent of ALDC kids, which they try to balance with high performing URM kids. This means that the expensive private high schools have a very high percent of kids with one or more hooks, compared to any public high school out there.
Most of the “high stats” kids at my D19’s high school were accepted, and attend, the college of their choice. Some are T-40 colleges, and some are not, depending on what was dictated by finances, career choice, personal preferences, and some level of chance.
Overall, I agree with the rest of your post. However, if one IS ranking (which I’m not a fan of, as you know), you cannot rank mangos, pistachios, and pretzels together.
Aside from that, Forbes caters to a community which is dominated by very specific set of people (by way of income, values, and career choices), and their ranking system is based on what is important to this particular community.
I don’t get applying to schools based on a list or ranking.
To answer your question,
No, it is not pointless to apply to Top schools for a high-stats unhooked student.
The goal should be to research what that school is looking for, and whether you will be happy there, and “Is it a good fit” ?
It does not matter if Cornell is an excellent school, if you hate cold weather or need a smaller school.
As long as you research the schools, and don’t apply scattershot, then you should be happy with your outcome.
One of DD’s friend applied to ALL Ivies, MIT, Stanford, and one in-state safety.
I don’t know how anyone could be happy at Columbia and Dartmouth !! Not to mention the time to do the supplements.
There are many unhooked, excellent students at the Top schools, not all of them are geniuses, or International award winners, but overall admit rate is very low.
Your chances go up, if you apply Early, especially ED, but only if you love ED schools and not to get into Top 10-20-40.
There are hundreds of great schools in the US.
@NCKris , I agree with you you about no sense in applying to schools just for rank. For my kid, I’m trying to help begin a list of safety, match, reach that would be a good fit for her and I don’t wish to have her waste time/energy (visits, essays, apps) on schools that won’t accept kids who aren’t hooked or some kind of an international phenomenon. That’s why I’m trying to do some preliminary research.
Every student is different. Her older brother would purposely avoid a school if it was a T40. Fine by me. 
It’s all about fit.
My d20 came away from a tour of a T10 saying “that checked every box.” We knew it would be a challenge because she was like every other high stats kid. No major awards; didn’t lead any national movements. We did attend an information session for Tufts where they were boldly upfront about what it takes to get into a top school - they talked about things like institutional priorities and gave examples of kids who got in and kids who didn’t (and had the audience make predictions.) It was probably the most helpful session I’ve ever sat in on (and this is my fourth daughter - I’ve toured about 75 schools over the last 12 years.) So, my D did her homework on what her chosen school needed/wanted and made sure to visit, to show a lot of demonstrated interest, to convey in her “Why xxx” what she felt she could get from the school and what she felt she could give them. And she applied ED. And she got in. So - it’s doable.
@Lindagaf posted this and I forgot which tread but this is very excellent and by post AOs from like Upenn, Yale and Harvard. I listened to a few of these and really great advise.
I love Inside the Admissions Office: Advice from Former Admissions Officers, let’s play it!
https://www.podbean.com/ea/pb-szszq-cff168
There are about 10 of these look under the three lines on top left
Surely the only time the answer to the title question would be “no” is when the majority of admissions are hooked kids. That’s not the case anywhere afaik, and certainly not in the lower half of the T40. My D19 and a bunch of her California public high school classmates are high stats (some not even that high by cc standards, ahem) unhooked kids who got into T40s. (Of course the hooked kids had success too, Harvard and Stanford liked their athletes in particular. But plenty unhooked kids in T40 from there.)