Where do kids like mine go? Smart but no hooks [ME resident, 4.0 GPA, 1570 SAT, <$50k]

Applying to College
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So I have a daughter graduating next year and a son graduating in two.

Both are smart, motivated nerds-but average applicants in the selective context. Daughter has 4.0, 1570, many APs, math at college, writes for school/local paper-but nothing crazy. She’s spending the summer hiking, reading, with her friends, with visiting family. No idea what to study-she’s thinking literature/linguistics/anthropology, probably more than one. Son is more oriented-he wants to do law, does internships, clubs, instrument, shadowing. And due to high assets and income, we don’t qualify for any need-based scholarships.

I explain that to frame my question-where are kids like mine going?

Kids who don’t have hooks but are smart and passionate. Kids who are not really wealthy, not first-generation, not an athlete, not Einsteins, not related to faculty or celebrities.

Obviously, there are state flagships. But what I have noticed about my daughter is that she thrives when she’s around people who are smarter than she is and she has to struggle to get ahead (though not to keep up). She is realizing this too. She does well when teachers are good and the expectations are high enough that she doesn’t want to coast. Surely others have similar kids.

So the way I see it there are some tiers of schools:

There must be a tier of schools where unhooked students like her don’t get in. (Maybe one percent would if binding.)

Then there must be a tier of schools where unhooked students like her get in and pay full and students who are hooked get in and get academic scholarships.

Then a tier where unhooked students at her level get in and get academic scholarships and unhooked students a little below her level get in and pay full.

And so on, n+1.

Another dimension is that schools in tier 2 are looking to become tier 1, and tier 3 to become tier 2, etc. So tier 2 is offering scholarships to the hooked kids who get into tier 1 to lure them into coming to them. And tier 3 to the tier 2 admits, etc.

For her, we’re looking at tier 2/3, where the school is made of people who are academically generally at or slightly above her level but where she still can get in and maybe get academic scholarships.

What are those schools? And what should kids like mine keep in mind when they apply?

PS: I know it’s crass to say kids are above or below each other as applicants or as students. But the kids at Husson, the flagship and Bowdoin are different.

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Start with your budget. What can you pay per year for school? Are you sure you won’t qualify for any need based aid at a school like Bowdoin? (since you mentioned that one) Try the NPC to make sure.

Did she take the PSAT test junior year? If so, will she be a national merit semi-finalist?

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The student who writes has a great EC.

Need more info.

Do you have a budget ? How much are willing to spend ? Scholarships, per se, aren’t the be all and end all. Some schools are less expensive full pay than others with merit. So you need a $$ figure.

Which part of the country does the student want to be in ? Weather preferences ?

What size school ?

Urban, suburban, and rural ?

Sports? Greek ?

Tell us more.

I can name tens or hundreds of schools with the info given.

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I’m not sure which state you’re in (you might want to create a chance me/match me thread and fill out the template), but there are plenty of very smart kids at state flagships, especially in honors programs.

Agreed, we need a lot more information. If you fill out the template it’ll help us help you figure out appropriate schools for your daughter.

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Kids like yours go to all kinds of schools - it just depends on what they are looking for. My S24 was an unhooked, full-pay student with outstanding academic credentials (similar to your daughter) and he is attending UVA - not a T20, but still a well regarded school where he is receiving an excellent education (he applied there OOS). Other schools where he was accepted included William & Mary, McGill and Colby. He was waitlisted at his top choice, Northwestern, and rejected at the couple of other T20s he applied to (only applied to 3 or 4). A student like your daughter is likely to get some acceptances from schools just a notch below the T20s and her academics make her competitive anywhere (some unhooked students do get into the tippy-top schools). There are lots of fantastic schools out there where your kids can get a great education but they vary widely in terms of cost, location, size, vibe etc. It all depends on what your daughter is looking for (big, small, rural, urban etc) and what you, as parents, are willing to spend. At some schools your daughter would get very generous merit because of her great stats - if that is of interest to you, here is a list of schools and what they offer in terms of merit (plus the % of students who are getting it). Merit Aid by Institution – College Transitions

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I think it is important to start with a budget. Once you have one you can craft a list of affordable schools.

I agree that we need more information.

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Your kids will have tons of great options. They can take a shot at a couple of the hyper-competitive schools but should create a balanced application list with reach, match, and safety schools they would be excited to attend.

First focus on affordability (which may not be an issue), then fit. What environment would they each thrive in? Consider things like size, location, academics, and anything else they each deem important (ex. Greek Life, big time sports, etc.)

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I was lucky and got to meet a number of very smart people during my career, one way or another. There are a few more that I have only met recently. The honest answer is that they go to university all over the place.

Some go to big name famous schools. Some go to their in-state public universities. Some go to large schools. Some go to liberal arts colleges. Some go to schools that give good merit scholarships or national merit scholarships. A few students from the US attend university in Canada or the UK or elsewhere. Some of the smartest people I have met are from outside the US, got a bachelor’s in their home country, and then might or might not come to the US for a graduate degree.

One trend that I see is that the academically strongest students tend to go all over the place for their bachelor’s degree, and then are a bit more likely to attend a big name university for a graduate degree. Master’s degrees take less time than a bachelor’s which means that they might cost less if you are full pay. PhD’s are typically fully funded. MD’s, DO’s, DVM’s, law degrees, and some other graduate degrees can be just very expensive.

This is also common. There are quite a few of us who cannot afford to pay something in excess of $300,000 for a bachelor’s degree for each child, but who make too much to qualify for need based aid. The simple answer is that we avoid the expensive big name schools that do not have merit aid.

I noticed Bowdoin mentioned in the first post. If you can’t afford it you don’t go. You find somewhere else that is affordable. One daughter was interested in Bowdoin, went elsewhere (an affordable university that was a good fit for her), got great opportunities and a great education, did very well, and is now getting a PhD at a very good university.

And yes there are very strong students at in-state public universities, and at universities in Canada, and at a very wide range of other universities. At MIT or Harvard every student is academically very strong. At U.Mass there will be quite a few students who are just as strong, and many more who are almost as strong. The best coworkers that I have worked with who were U.Mass graduates were just as good and just as successful as the best coworkers who I have worked with who were from MIT or Stanford.

As @Mwfan1921 and others have correctly stated, you start with your budget. Figure out what you can afford to spend. In doing this, there are multiple things to keep in mind: (1) You do not want to mess up your retirement to pay for university; (2) It is a huge benefit for a recent university graduate to have no debt. Quite often the first “dream job” can help jump start a career but does not pay well; (3) Whatever you pay for your oldest child sets a precedent; (4) The academically strongest and most driven students sometimes end up in graduate school, which might imply additional expense; (5) Not everyone graduates in 4 years. Even academically excellent students might for example have a late change in major or a dual major.

The next thing that comes to mind is that finding a good fit is way, way more important than the ranking of whatever university or college a student attends.

And this isn’t easy. However, at least in my experience students can usually find a school that is affordable and a good fit.

I might add that I used to see very good high tech companies hiring a lot of graduates from MIT and Stanford. Now I see a lot of graduates from U.Mass and San Jose State and some of the IIT’s (in India). I think that the cost of education is a big part of this. I think that unpredictable admissions at the highly ranked schools is a part of this. I am not sure if there are other factors here. Hiring managers seem to have figured out that a lot of strong graduates come from affordable schools.

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I’m not sure which state you’re in . . L

I don’t know either, but the references to Husson and Bowdoin lead me to believe that she is in Maine.

Just a guess. :wink:

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There are schools for your kids (and btw, a kid like your D could be a contender for a school like Bowdoin, but it sounds like you’re chasing merit?), but like the others said, we need more information.

I’m gathering that your D might be more open to LACs? You don’t have to be “hooked” to get merit aid at a school that offers merit (LAC, large university, or anywhere in between) – but high stats help, and your D has them. If you give us a better idea of the type of school your D is considering, we could offer some suggestions. Size? Region? Any specific attributes? Same goes for your S.

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As a rough generality, the most selective two dozen or so colleges may present a notable admission challenge for such a student. Nonetheless, high matches may be found just outside of this group. For a statistical guideline to such hypothetical tiers, this analysis provides Student Selectivity Ranks for colleges and universities together:

However, inversions of likelihood of admission may occur. For example, Amherst (#27) may represent a more challenging admission for some students than, say, Vanderbilt (#14).

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As so many others have said, your budget is going to determine what list is most appropriate. If you are willing and able to afford full pay, the sky’s the limit when it comes to where your children can apply, and a well rounded list of reach/target/likelies is always a good idea for every applicant.

I would also highly recommend not thinking that schools of different selectivity have “different kids”. There will be super smart kids at every school, and kids you wonder how they were accepted. Yes, even at the “Bowdoins”.

The big difference we saw was the proportion of super smart kids. At a “lesser ranked” LAC, there may be 250 (out of 2000) students who are knock your socks off smart/talented/etc. At a more highly ranked LAC, there might be 500 out of 2000. You aren’t the only parent/family looking for that sweet spot of smart kid who wants to be surrounded by other smart kids whose parents want a ‘deal’ on college pricing.

That means there will be plenty of other academic superstars at almost any school. At my children’s “less selective” LACs (we were looking for bargains too!) - there are Fulbright scholars named yearly, Top 14 Law school admissions yearly, Top 20 Med schools yearly, fully funded PhD offers yearly, funded summer internships all the time, etc. The big thing we don’t see coming out of those schools very often is IB placements and/or Consulting. Maybe 1-2 every other year or so, from student(s) who really chase those opportunities and are willing to start in a smaller market (Chicago, Dallas, Salt Lake City, etc).

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If you are in Maine, and if you want a LAC, and if you can afford it without merit aid, Bowdoin, Colby, and Bates will all be options. They really like to have in-state kids.

If you need merit aid, the universe of schools will be different. It’s also important with LACs to find schools that feel right to your kids.

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My D sounds like yours. Smart, unhooked. We were full pay. She attended Bates and had a great experience. My son was also smart, unhooked, but unmotivated. He had a great experience at Binghamton.

I work with college bound high schoolers in the North East. Many of them fit the description of our kids and they go everywhere: the south is hot right now. In fact, all sorts of OOS public universities are always popular. Michigan State or U Michigan. Indiana U, the Ohio State, anything in Florida. The UCs and CSUs. Colorado. But so are many private U’s, especially on the Eastern seaboard.

Your kids will end up where they should be. Read the old classic “Truthful Advice about Getting into Top Colleges for your Average Excellent Student” here on CC.

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Here are 3 excellent LACs with lots of smart kids, which all give merit scholarships and where this student would be a very strong candidate for a scholarship:

Connecticut College
Union College
Lafayette College

I’d also add U of Rochester, smaller research university where she’d also be a strong candidate for a scholarship.

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This describes the vast majority of college students.

I agree, we need more info about your kid. That will help give better suggestions.

I also agree that doing a chance me/match me for the student who is going to college first is a good idea.

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My daughter was like yours, “average excellent”, no hooks. (I think many on this board fit this bill). She had schools on her list from regional safeties to T10s. We were fortunate to be able to tour 15 schools. We found smart, drive, hardworking students everywhere. There wasn’t one school, safeties included, that we left thinking she wouldn’t be challenged. All the safeties had an honor college.

I think often times we forget that college isn’t high school 2.0. This is already a very self selecting group of kids who are aiming for higher education.

The biggest differences we saw were not in intelligence and hard work, but in stress level.

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Can’t agree more. And our true safety – with a very high acceptance rate – was also a true favorite.

With that said, it pays to think about what motivates your kids. Some kids rise to meet the tide, others are discouraged if they aren’t at the front of the pack. Some will find ways to connect with profs wherever they are while others may do better in an environment where that’s part of the programming.

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Students like yours attend all types of schools- large, small, private, public, more competitive, less competitive (relative) etc.

I am not really understanding your tiers.

There are factors that come into play: budget, personal preferences, etc.

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So I know lots of kids like that, including really our own S24.

In our circles, some end up at various LACs. Not just NESCACs–indeed in my circles, the NESCAC kids are more likely to be recruited athletes, although not always. But also various women’s colleges; Vassar; many Pennsylvania LACs including Swarthmore, Haverford, Bucknell, Lafayette, and so on; Upper Midwest LACs like Carleton, Grinnell, Macalester, Oberlin, Kenyon, and so on; western LACs like Colorado or various Claremont colleges; there are a lot.

Others end up in research universities. Many end up in UAA (aka “Egghead Eight”) colleges–WashU, CMU, Case Western, Rochester, Emory, NYU, and Brandeis. The eighth is Chicago, and actually–if you really want to go to Chicago, and apply ED with really good numbers, it might work out. But most kids I know like this don’t really want to go to Chicago.

Then there are the Jesuit colleges. Some kids like this will end up at Georgetown, others BC. The remainder are not as popular in my circles, but plenty of colleges like Fordham (NYC), Santa Clara (Bay Area), Loyola Marymount (LA), and others appeal to kids who want to be in those areas.

And then the more Catholicky kids will also look at Notre Dame.

Then honors colleges at a bunch of publics might have appeal. Some such kids will also get into a place like Michigan, UVA, or UNC, which might appeal even without honors. Or if they are engineering types specifically, engineering powerhouses like Purdue, Illinois, and so on.

And then there are others that don’t really fit a theme per se. Wake Forest and William & Mary are both popular, depending on your exact desired vibe. Proud nerds will probably be more W&M types, Wake Forest tends to be more the smart/sporty types. Some kids really like Tufts. Some like Northeastern.

And a few kids go to military academies, or non-US schools.

I think that covers most of the common cases.

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