I posted in a forum from a community college I used to attend asking if anyone has ever hung out with their professors outside of class. Like gotten drinks with them, did karaoke with them, etc. I then got a slew of comments from people saying that it’s not ethical for professors to hang out with their students especially when drinking. However, at the university I transferred to, I have heard some students say that they do karaoke with their professors sometimes. What are your thoughts on this?
Sounds like a relatively normal thing. I’m guessing that typically happens towards the end of the semester as a celebration. It’s probably more questionable if it’s regularly during the middle of the semester. For example, at my school at the end of engineering capstone project presentations, all the students and a few professors go to a locally known bar and celebrate. It would be very different if that happened weekly/monthly during the semester though.
I think that if a professor opens his or her home to all of the class or if the department typically gets together, that is fine. However, one on one hanging out is probably bordering on the unethical and potentially the coercive.
Like hang out. Never. Going to coffee /lunch /dinner to discuss a project then yes. This happens at lacs all the time. My daughter was invited to dinner at a professors house and her family was there. Ended up my daughter and the professor and her husband all did research on the same small island in Indonesia. My daughter is now their regular babysitter which is great for her since the minimum wage in her area is like $7:00/hour and they pay her $10:00…kids are older and she gets to study…
She has also had one on one dinners to discuss projects at other professors houses. Sometimes alone but mostly with other students.
I think students need to evaluate the situation and pick wisely.
No, it is completely normal and benign for professors and students to interact socially outside of class… unless there is a dynamic that makes the student uncomfortable- something that feels sexual or coercive or strange about it- in which case the student should decline the invitation. (Also, it is always safest to avoid one-on-ones at a home, versus a public location.)
It is not like high school. In college, both the student and the professor are adults. The power dynamic is not really any different from that of a working adult’s socializing with their boss.
In college, meeting professors for dinner or coffee is typical. Some colleges even have special funds for students to take their favorite professors out to dinner! Professors often welcome groups of students into their homes. Or hang out with students at college functions.
I interacted with several of my professors in this way back in the day. There were many meals with profs in the dining halls. I remember going with a few other students to a professor’s house, where he and his wife served us dinner. I also remember meeting one of my professors and her young daughter at an ice skating rink. (I also recall refusing an invitation from one professor to meet him at his house. It may have been 100% innocent, and probably was, but I did not want to risk it. I just said I was busy, he said okay and to let him know if I wanted to do it some other time, and that was it. No negative consequences- I continued to hang out with that professor and other students in the dining hall, earned the same grade in his class that semester as I had in the semester before, etc.)
In fact, the close personal dynamics between professors and students is something that often attracts students to some colleges, like small liberal arts colleges. These are among their chief selling points: easy access to professors and a tight community where students are close with one another and with their professors.
Trust your spidey senses. If something feels wrong, stay away. Otherwise, feel free to enjoy the opportunity to interact in a less formal setting!
It’s perfectly ethical for students and professors to do things together socially, unless there is some sexual component. Part of being at college in a residential setting is precisely to have interactions with professors, fellow students, and other members of the community outside of class. There’s nothing wrong with that. If all parties are legally able to drink and they are not abstaining / it’s their personal choice to drink, then drinking can be part of the social interaction.
I had a prof who threw a party at his apartment for our class at the end of the semester as an undergrad. Remember meeting a TA of the opposite gender at a bar for a beer to discuss questions I had about a paper grade once. It was his suggestion, but I recall that he was married, and I didn’t really think much of it at the time.
My kids definitely have out of class relationships with some of their profs. They went to small LACs. One used to babysit and dog sit for her profs. One of her profs sometimes contacts her to get together for drinks when the prof comes to her city. The other has a very close relationship with the two profs (one man, one woman) who ran the lab she researched in for a couple of years and a couple of summers. The woman offered to have her stay in her apartment when prof was gone once and D didn’t have a dorm room for a few days (don’t think kid did it, but offer was made). They definitely went out to eat often, and not always with other students. Now that D is a PhD student, the male prof comes through her college town sometimes when driving to the undergrad school, and he and D meet up at a restaurant (he always still insists on paying) when he comes through.
Now… my D who is a TA now as part of her PhD program generally is careful not to hang out with her undergrads. But that is partly because they are 95% male and regularly seem to develop crushes on her (I read her teaching reviews from last semester from her students, and there were several that said things like “Intchild is hella cute”, and similar comments). They are also pretty close in age (D is 23, students are typically 19-20). So she is keeping her distance, and I think that’s a good idea. She did join an art club on campus and a couple of her students are in it. She was a little worried it might be weird ahead of time, but says it is fine and they are cool.
It depends. There are some profs who will recognize they’re the profs. not buddies. DH used to mind that some peers blurred that line, for their own egos. Getting to know an advisee better or discuss work is different than hanging, drinking.
It’s fine, as long as the professor isn’t hitting on students.
I guess I’m in the minority here. I see no good reason for a professor and student to be out drinking and doing karaoke together. As a matter of fact, that would set off alarm bells in my mind.
“No good reason” ≠ “unethical,” which was the OP’s question. And while I can’t imagine many instances where it would be unethical, there are more instances where it could be unprofessional or or inappropriate or irresponsible. There are also many more instances where it is none of those things; it’s simply grabbing a beer with some students. As with many questions, the answer is “it depends.”
@chercheur you are not a minority of one, though. Me, too. I can see why it happens especially on small college campuses where the profs don’t have a lot of social outlets. But it’s not a great dynamic. Like with work colleagues, you can be friendly and even have social events involving lots of people (retirement sendoff parties, etc.) but regular hanging out is not really appropriate. I’ve seen it all, though - much older professors marrying their undergrad students, etc. People like to step over the lines.
I think it is fine for students to socialize with professors, either in groups or 1-on-1. In fact, if professors take students to academic conferences, it would be a little weird to be like “I will come to your academic presentation, but I certainly will not have a meal with you! That would be unethical!”
I am a faculty member, and have my first year seminar come over to my house for a pumpkin carving party and pizza before Halloween every fall. I have taken my first year seminar to lunch in the spring. I have gone to meals with students at academic conferences, including 1-on-1 if there is only one student presenting. I am a mentor and a friend.
Students at small liberal arts colleges want those kinds of experiences.
There’s a big difference between one-on-one (non-academic) socializing between a professor and an undergrad student and a social event to which the entire class is invited. “Much older professors marrying their undergrad students” is moral turpitude, pure and simple, and – at most schools – would be grounds for dismissal. Professors sometimes might socialize with grad students in their department, but if there is anything remotely romantic or sexual going on, they are expected to recuse themselves from committees or discussions about student’s progress, etc.
@BookLvr attending a conference together and sharing a meal is different, though. You would do that with a work colleague. We’re talking about hanging out just to hang out, not targeted group socializing like with your pumpkin carving. A student could still take it the wrong way, though, or feel that they had to have dinner with you. But you can probably read the signals…
@BookLvr - Your pumpkin carving activity and lunch seminars are not one-on-one.
Having (and paying for) lunch, in public, at an academic conference is okay – inviting that same student out for a romantic dinner, a night on the town, bar-hopping/karaoke, or going to your hotel room for a nightcap, not so much.
Being invited (one-on-one) to a professor’s home without the professor’s family present is a gray area. Not altogether appropriate; it would creep me out.
I agree with you entirely, @LoveTheBard and@CCtoAlaska. Just because I said 1-on-1 socializing can be appropriate did not mean ALL forms of 1-on-1 socializing are appropriate. Mentor-y types of interactions are appropriate. Seduction is not. (In fact, that would apply to professor and professor socializing as well as student and professor socializing, particularly when there are hierarchical relationships between faculty members, e.g., chair of department and new minted professor.) I will also add that the student I took out to dinner is a heterosexual female, as am I…but I would have felt comfortable extending the same invitation to a male or non-binary student. It was decidedly a “Well done, student!” kind of occasion.
I had assumed in the OP’s post that the karaoke and drinks occasions were group get togethers, took place fully clothed, and did not involve any underage drinking. If any of those assumptions are wrong, then my opinion would change!
Nowadays, because of well-publicized instances of abuse, our society risks becoming more both puritanical and more suspicious of normal, healthy interactions.
As a teacher and principal in today’s world, I never ever would have allowed a student in grades K-12 even to visit my house, never mind to sleep over my house for the weekend! But, a generation before, my parents- a school psychologist and a special education teacher- did so all the time! Their students played with me when I was their age, babysitted me when I was younger, etc. One of my mom’s students visited us at Christmas every year for years, and my husband and I, along with my parents, attended his wedding. One of my dad’s students was my high school prom date, another student traveled north with my parents and helped us take home all my stuff from my dorm room at college, etc.
Two students even lived with my family for a while. When I was in 4th grade, one student was placed with us by a judge; my dad, his school psychologist, was the only one who could “control” him, and the judge said he was either going home with my dad or going to a juvenile detention facility! More importantly, before I was born, one of my dad’s students was “best man” at my parents’ wedding, lived with my parents, was sent to college by my parents… and today, as an only child, I am so glad I could rely on him to visit my dad every day when my dad was in assisted living due to his dementia until my mom got back from the hospital. He took excellent care of my dad and made a frightening time a bit better for my dad. And you know what? Every single one of that man’s high school friends died of a drug overdose before age 30. But he is in his late sixties, is happily married, owns his own business, and has a grown son who is now married and a lawyer— and he has led this happy life largely because my parents took him in and changed his life. And now he is so good to my elderly parents! He is “family.”
Today, I would never risk having a personal out-of-school relationship with a kid I work with under the age of 18, and I think any education professional would be foolish to do so.
But a college student is an adult, so it is different.
Unlike my last post in this thread, which was on-topic, I admit this one is bit off-topic. But this thread did get me thinking about how the world has become more suspicious and what is potentially lost because of that.
My roommate and I invited a professor to out apartment for dinner when we were undergrads. It was not a big deal at all.
Assuming all the students are of legal drinking age, there’s nothing unethical about a professor socializing with students. Now, if a professor is having a sexual relationship with or making sexual overtures to one of the students, that opens up a completely different Pandora’s box.