S is making this decision right now. His top 5 looks like a random selection of unrelated schools to anyone who doesn’t know his sport.
The perks at a Power 5 are nice, even in non revenue sports. Those schools have found every possible way to give money and other benefits to the athletes without crossing the line with the NCAA. However, I have reminded S that in all likelihood he will be retired at 23. The University will treat you like you are special for 5 years. But you need to make a living for the next 40 based on where you spent that 5.
If money is similar, ivy is pretty tempting. I don’t know crew, but assume it is usually partial scholarships. Maybe since not an NCAA sport they actually do give full scholarships some places because there are no restrictions. I would guess others have zero scholarships for the same reason. For S’s equivalency sport, a “4 year starter” level scholarship is still only about 70% at most programs, the only guy I know with a true full ride was an Olympic level athlete competing at the D2 level because of a personal relationship with the coach. Be sure you are talking with coaches to know what actually is happening with the dollars.
@Ohiodad51 is right about money being taken away. I think at Power 5 if you get injured that usually is ok moneywise, because they can pick up your scholarship as a non-counter if you aren’t competing. But if you are injured but still want to compete, or just don’t develop the way the coaches had hoped, there can be some pretty intense pressure to give up your scholarship, even if it is “guaranteed”.
If you want to go to a lesser school because of better training or costs, that’s a valid choice I think. I wouldn’t do it just for the perks though. A better room or free food isn’t really worth what you give up in the long run.
If you are a rower and a male there is no comparison in heavy weight men’s rowing between Yale and Michigan. Yale is the dominant competitor. OhioDad is correct that student athletes have to advocate for themselves at anIvy (read you aren’t considered some celebrity; you do your sport but are a student first) Having said that the boathouses and facilities at most Ivies are amazing.
Another point which seems to be muddled here…there is no such thing as a Athletic scholarship at the Ivies…its need based only. As was also mentioned because men’s rowing is not a NCAA sport there really isn’t much in the way of scholarship money to be had at other schools. You could get some $$$ with merit but men’s rowing isn’t the same as women’s rowing in terms of monies available.
I personally feel the Ivy model is the best as your FA is not tied to your sport. You are a student athlete with the emphasis on student first.
Good luck!
Are any of you parents to a kid that was choosing between D1/Ivy vs D3 track and field? I have a son who is deciding what he wants to do, go D1/Ivy or D3. He wants to study engineering. Cost of attendance isn’t an issue, it’s more work/life/sports balance that he is looking for. The nice thing about track is there aren’t meets every other day, but he is a little concerned about keeping up with his schoolwork. He is visiting a few schools next week to see what he can find out from the coaches. He’s picky too, He doesn’t want to go to a school that never wins, or go to some D1 just for the $$. He has to like the coach and facilities too, ha He is really focused on the finding the appropriate fit. I guess it will be an interesting spring and summer.
^there was a pretty robust thread on that exact topic during the last cycle. I think it was titled NESCAC v Ivy or something like that. You should be able to dig it out with a little bit of playing with the search bar.
@luckyblack I know the Yale women’s coach, great guy and awesome coach. The Yale women are fierce. I would not hesitate to send my daughter to that program.
Be careful about selecting a program because of the coach. A few coaches have been at schools for two decades and they probably aren’t going anywhere (unless they retire) but there is a lot of shifting around of coaches in the 2-10 year range. At least half of the coaches my daughter interviewed with are no longer at those schools. All you can do is hope the program would stay about the same with a new coach.
^ Funny story about coaching changes. My uncle played football for Syracuse in the late 60s/early 70s. The way the story goes, he was having trouble deciding between Syracuse and another school, and his dad, my grandpa, told him to go to Syracuse because Ben Schwartzwalder was an institution there who had been in place for ever, and there was no way to tell how long the new head coach at the other school would stick around. Turns out Schwartzwalder retired while he was there. The other school was Penn State and the new coach was Joe Paterno.
lots of good points here. My two cents: Ultimately, if the COA is similar, I think it comes down to whether you want an academic experience or sports experience. D1 - they own you, they choose your classes, they tell you when to study. Maybe not so much for rowing but for other sports. D1/Ivy - no you are not a celebrity. You get to balance your sport with your academic schedule, choose your classes, and compete with some really smart kids. As for engineering, my senior football player is graduating with a civil engineering degree from an Ivy. He worked harder than anyone else on the team (his teammates told him that, not me). Its a grind but he stuck it out and life after college will seem easy. It is doable but they don’t have nearly as much fun as the kids majoring in non-stem degrees. As for coaching changes, his program transformed itself from losing every game for decades to coming in second in the Ivy league - due in part to a headcoaching change during is freshman year. So it was blessing, although the new staff preferred playing the guys they recruited…and my son’s position coach changed all 4 years. He had a chance to play at a D1 program but choose to balance his love of the sport with a college experience and I think he would say it was worth it. And he has that network for life.
Regarding coaches, my son sets a low bar for approval, as long as he doesn’t detest the coach he’s OK. He’s had a few coaches though the years that have been complete jerks ( note CC approved language lol).
@RightCoaster – to your earlier post, I have a son who runs track and is pursuing an engineering degree at Princeton. I think it is safe to say that the talent on the track, while very impressive, is outclassed by the talent in the classroom. IMO, achieving work-life balance there is largely driven by whether or not participating in the sport falls into the life bucket or the work bucket.
@Startingblock thanks! I appreciate the info. Has he found it to be overwhelming at all, or can he handle it?
Was he a hard worker in HS? My son is a very hard worker type, both in classroom and on field. I think whether he goes to a tech based DIII or Ivy/Nescac the workload will be about the same. I imagine it must be hard, and that’s why I’d like to learn more about your son’s experience. Did he consider any D3? Has he been happy with his choice?
I keep reading about how smart the Ivy kids are. I bet the kids at Michigan are just as smart, as are many of the girls on my D’s D1 rowing team. Yale of course is an elite university and I hope the OP choses to go there, however there are thousands of kids who are as qualified or more qualified than the kids who got an acceptance. I dare say a kid who goes D1 at a huge school and manages to perform on the “field” and in the classroom is no less a student than a kid who goes Ivy. This line of thought is seriously annoying.
And FWIW with the exception of very few sports like rowing, the Ivy league is really D3.
@cleoforshort Of course there are extremely smart kids at UMich. There are many kids rejected from UMich but have been accepted into the Ivys. However, in terms of recruitment, I’m sure many kids may have chosen Mich vs an Ivy due to many personal reasons, esp finances, since Ivy do not give sports scholarships and many kids may have parents who are not “poor” enough to receive any financial aid. However, in terms of a recruit being admitted, UMich maybe be a little more lenient in terms of the grades and test scores than the Ivys. The Ivy league have mandated Academic Index which generally means the academic stats of the recruit have to be similar to the general admiited class.
@starwars1 The AI at an Ivy is used to assure that the average stats of the team not the individuals match the student body. I know a Freshman at Harvard who is a recruited mediocre lacrosse player who will sit on the bench for all four years because her gpa was through the roof. My D interned as a AT with an Ivy football team who had some members who were barely junior College material.
" I dare say a kid who goes D1 at a huge school and manages to perform on the “field” and in the classroom is no less a student than a kid who goes Ivy. This line of thought is seriously annoying."
Are you really saying that athletes at Michigan are academically equivalent to the athletes at Yale and Princeton?
@cleoforshort Ivy football is different in that it has a 4 band system where the lowest band is 3 standard deviation below the AI. So yes, some of the Ivy football recruits have pretty low academic stats, but great football players. The non revenue sports recruit all must be within 1 standard deviation or else they will not pass admissions.
@RightCoaster My daughter is a distance XCTF athlete that is majoring in engineering next year at an ACC school. She also was recruited for D-III and ivy. Her second choice school was a D-III program. My expectation is that the team will fulfill the social aspect of the college experience if the schedule is to be manageable.
Good luck to your D next year @jmk518, I may send a note to you for advice as we move along. Thanks for responding. My son wants to study Mech E and do winter and spring track and field.
The bottom band in the Ivy is 2 standard deviations from the mean to the league floor, not 3. This band is limited to 2 kids a class, so 8 total out of the student body for football, maybe a like number among all other sports. Not really talking about a lot of kids, certainly far fewer than many here assume.
2). Outside of football, basketball and men’s hockey the aggregate average AI of all recruited athletes must fall within one standard deviation of the AI of the four previous admitted classes. This is a different thing than saying all athletes must be within one standard deviation, and indeed many sports are going to have target AIs above the median.
I know kids playing football in the Ivy, know one who just graduated from Michigan and several now playing in the BIG and other P5 schools. The academic requirements and expectations are not even close. And that includes kids currently at Vandy and Notre Dame, and a couple who just graduated from Northwestern. That is not to say kids playing at great academic schools like Michigan, Vandy and ND are not intelligent or working hard, but the athletic expectations are immense, and meeting their academic expectations takes much more time, usually covered by summer classes and a fifth or sometimes a sixth year. It is just how it is.
4). The Ivy is nowhere near D3, and I would caution anyone who assumes it is to carefully study the athletes participating at the Ivy level and the level of play there before making that assumption.