<p>“Okay Dross and Felix can we get back to this century or decade? Seriously, willie horton was when I was engaged.”</p>
<p>Willie Horton was the racial issue that did in Dukakis, so I think it is history repeating itself. We learn from past history, so I consider it relevant to today.</p>
<p>What I don’t get is how bulletandpima and Dross can stay so engaged in this political process (and these political threads) when they are so clearly cynical about all the candidates and what they have to offer and how far short they fall in terms of offering “real solutions.” If I was that despairing over the candidates on both sides – about the political process in its entirety – I would have a very hard time caring enough to post on these threads. I mean what would be the point, except as an intellectual exercise in arguing for argument’s sake, or perhaps baiting posters by playing Devil’s Advocate ad nauseum. </p>
<p>How do you guys reconcile your cynicism with your obvious engagement/interest in this process?</p>
<p>“While this is a true context, it is entirely irrelevant to the context that matters here-- the one wherein we discover the ultimate meaning and truth of Hillarys Selma statement to black folk. I do not obsess over it, and neither does Novak. We see it for the dishonesty that it is, and it further confirms my suspicions against Hillarys trustworthiness. It is far more significant than the alleged snub by Obama, since in that alleged snub there was no lying involved and not even the allegation of lying.”</p>
<p>This is too typical–your candidate’s gaffe is meaningless and overblown, while the other candidate’s gaffe reveals a deeper truth about her character. Can’t you see how ridiculous this is?</p>
<p>poetsheart you and drosselmeir see racial overtones in everything people say and write. Chill</p>
<p>It was not heart, it was the attempts and completion, and isn’t it ‘lesser of two evil’ a common expression? or do you read racial snipe?</p>
<p>“We have here a man who worked ardently for Hitler.”</p>
<p>Was the Nazi A CHILD when he last worked for Hitler? And did he turn against the Nazis as soon as he grew up a little, when they were still flourishing and a realistic option for him? Then it’s fine with me. Hillary could easily have been a Nixon girl too, but she wasn’t. As soon as she got out of the house and grew up a little, she changed.</p>
<p>Simple, momof2inca, I CARE</p>
<p>I care about my children’s future. I care about my future. I care about what will happen if we stop caring.</p>
<p>I am not baiting, Choose who you want, but don’t get angry at me for saying have you thought about the big pic?</p>
<p>I have agreed with many posters on both sides of the fence. Forgive me, for getting every piece of information, and listening to other sides before I cast my vote. Should I just stand firm in my convictions and not play “devil’s advocate” as you say I am doing? Isn’t it better that I have all of the facts, or is ignorance better. </p>
<p>You have made it a point to attack me over and over again, that is your choice, my choice is to make the most informed decision I can make…this election matters to me</p>
<p>Felix, Did I miss a beat is there any Willie Horton out there with any of the current candidates?</p>
<p>BTW willie Horton was on furlough from prison and committed a burgulary and rape…it did Dukakis in b/c he was governor when he allowed him (life in prison wuthout parole was his sentence)</p>
<p>“Felix, Did I miss a beat is there any Willie Horton out there with any of the current candidates?”</p>
<p>Probably not, but one can spin/twist Obama’s ‘present’ vote in IL crime legislation as softer on crime thing.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>THAT I think is ridiculous. You may not agree with the things she’s done, but just because she wasn’t technically elected to office for all those years doesn’t mean she did not do a ton of things and that she doesn’t know how to play the Washington game.</p>
<p>Obama has nothing on her.</p>
<p>Where will Edward’s voters go?</p>
<p>The Florida Democratic primary may not have mattered in terms of delegates, but it can tell us what a lot of voters do without a real campaign in their state. Edwards voters in Florida were very different from those favoring Barack Obama and those voting for Hillary Clinton. </p>
<p>First of all, Edwards had almost no minority support. One percent of African-Americans and only 8 percent of Hispanics voted for him. He ran best with white men, getting one in four of their votes (about the same share that Obama received). One in four Edwards voters called themselves conservatives – and just a third said they were liberal. Majorities of Clinton and Obama voters called themselves liberals. </p>
<p>[By the way, Clinton received 25 percent of African-American votes in Florida, and Obama 23 percent of white votes.] </p>
<p>Second, the Edwards supporters were the most likely to say that they would be dissatisfied if either of the other candidates won the nomination. Fifty-three percent of them would be dissatisfied if Clinton won the nomination, and 52 percent if Obama won (most of Clinton’s and Obama’s voters said they’d be satisfied whatever the final outcome). Edwards voters were also much less likely to think that the country overall was ready to elect a black or a female president than other voters were – 59 percent versus 82 percent of all Florida Democrats in the case of a woman, 57 percent versus 71 percent in the case of a black. </p>
<p>This isn’t a white male feeling – men and women who voted for Edwards answered these questions pretty much the same way. </p>
<p>So Edwards might not be able to move his voters to either of the other candidates en masse. Some of his supporters will clearly opt not to support either Clinton or Obama.</p>
<p>[Giuliani</a> Exit May Benefit McCain But Where Do Edwards Voters Go? - Horserace](<a href=“http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/01/30/politics/horserace/entry3770296.shtml]Giuliani”>http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/01/30/politics/horserace/entry3770296.shtml)</p>
<p>“Felix, Did I miss a beat is there any Willie Horton out there with any of the current candidates?”</p>
<p>There have been multiple debates about the effect of race on this election, how the Clintons are playing the race card, subtley, to discredit Obama.</p>
<p>Willie Horton was a scary, black man, who would get all those middle-class white Americans if Dukakis became President. He was used to scare voters away. It was the swiftboating of Dukakis, before swiftboating was part of the vernacular.</p>
<p>Felix, I must ask now, were you voting then?</p>
<p>I remember the ad, and it wasn’t about race, it was about letting a guy who was to serve life in prison without parole on a furlough, where he then committed more crimes. I don’t recall anyone thinking about his race, what people were thinking was Dukakis was soft on crime and allowed the worst of criminal offenders out on furlough.</p>
<p>I also remember Kitty being hospitalized after drinking rubbing alcohol…that was what really killed his campaign…it was only about a 10-15 yrs after Betty Ford</p>
<p>Well, Obama has already stated (or someone in his campaign said he stated) that he would actively try to get Edwards to endorse him. He really wants his support (as does Hillary, I’m sure). Honestly, I think most of us (Edwards supporters) were/are so loyal, that we’ll go with the person he chooses to endorse. That’s my plan, anyway.</p>
<p>bulletandpima, my question was not meant as an attack and I’m sorry if you took it that way. I’m honestly curious about how people who seemingly can’t find anyone to support as a candidate on either side (and who take a lot of pleasure in pointing out perceived weaknesses of certain candidates but then don’t hold up anyone in a positive way) stay so engaged in the process. It just takes a lot of time to participate at this level on these threads and if I didn’t have hope in one or more of the candidates as someone who really can make things better for our country, I just don’t think the time would be justified. That’s just me though. I’m really glad that I am inspired by the three (now 2) Democratic candidates and that I could vote for any of them over any of the Republicans. I can’t imagine finding any pleasure at all posting negative after negative about all of the candidates and offering nobody up as a solution. I do believe that you care about the election, I just am trying to understand what motivates the near continuous, universal negativity about the candidates. </p>
<p>It reminds me of a friend I have who complains about everything but never offers up any solutions. Everything is just wrong all the time, and she cares deeply about it, and there is no hope for anything to get better because of this and that. And when I do say, but there is hope, have you thought of this or that, she’ll will find reasons to criticize this or that, too. Nothing lives up to what it should be but she can’t offer up an ideal either. So it’s just a conundrum and yet takes a lot of energy to maintain that mindset. </p>
<p>This is not meant as an attack on you or Dross. Seriously, I’m just interested in whether either of you see anyone on the political landscape who lives up to your standards and if not, what motivates you to argue the demerits of candidates with people who support them?</p>
<p>BAP yes I voted then. There were 4 things done to swiftboat Dukakis, and I haven’t heard about Kitty. That is too bad, if it is true. But, THAT DID NOT KILL HIS CAMPAIGN.</p>
<p>Repeating simple messages over and over. Showing photos on TV of an AA Willie Horton over and over. Showing the public a mean and scary looking photo.</p>
<p>Anyway, Dros brought up Willie Horton. I just responded with the “and he did raise taxes” which was another one of the 4 things Bush did in his swiftboating.</p>
<p>1.Read My Lips</p>
<p>2.Boston Harbor is most polluted place in US and it is Dukakis’s fault.</p>
<p>3.Willie Horton</p>
<p>4.Dukakis in the tank and a helmet</p>
<p>Not Kitty</p>
<p>I actually have my no.1 candidate, and then I have my back up if no.1 does not get the nom. Just so you know, my back up is not in the same political party. I will vote for the candidate who is closest to what I believe in. I am not a party person, I am a platform person. </p>
<p>If you knew me, I am not the sky is falling type of person…Politics is important to me and I am serious about it. I think you are reading more into it on a personal level. I am not looking to go negative, I am looking for answers. I am tired of this country pointing fingers at each other. </p>
<p>For once in my life I want to see us get past the partisanship and just respect each other. So when I push a point it maybe to enlighten myself, it maybe to enlighten others, but most importantly it is to enlighten us as voters. </p>
<p>I am sorry you see it as negativity, I see it as listeneing and learning.</p>
<p>Felix,</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Read my lips was 92</p></li>
<li><p>The tank did hurt Dukakis</p></li>
<li><p>Kitty was an issue</p></li>
</ol>
<p>Kitty Dukakis Recovering </p>
<p>Published: November 11, 1989
LEAD: Kitty Dukakis remained hospitalized today, recovering from the effects of drinking rubbing alcohol, and there was no word on the date of her release. Sue Kaplan, a spokeswoman for Gov. Michael S. Dukakis, said only that Mrs. Dukakis would not be released today from Brigham and Women’s Hospital. She was admitted Monday night after drinking what her doctor said was a small amount of rubbing alcohol.</p>
<p>Courtesy of wikipedia:
Dukakis was attacked for such positions as opposing mandatory recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance in schools, as well as being a “card carrying member of the ACLU” (a statement made by Dukakis concerning himself early in the primary campaign). Dukakis countered by saying that he was a “proud liberal” and that the phrase should stop being a bad word in America</p>
<p>Riding around in the tank, Willie Horton and the above statement hurt him…I am not from MA and so I don’t remember the harbor story…I guess it did not get any play in my home state</p>
<p>How will Obama deal with this guy? Buy him lunch? I know he was ready to take on China over some bad toys–smart.</p>
<p>[Ahmadinejad</a> tells West: Accept Israel’s ‘imminent collapse’ - Haaretz - Israel News](<a href=“http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/949628.html]Ahmadinejad”>http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/949628.html)</p>
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<p>Dukakis was dead meat no matter what.</p>