Is Prestige Still about Ivies and Rankings?

[twoinanddone]

@NiceUnparticularMan

Honestly, if someone working for me insisted on choosing people for my organization in that way, I would fire them.

I didn’t read the post as the hiring person automatically picking the Notre Dame grad for the job, but that ND provided a foot in the door. After that door is open, the applicant does have to prove they can do the job to get the job. If the company is only interviewing 15 people for the job, and you get an interview, you are doing better than the kid who didn’t go to ND.

[NiceUnparticularMan]

@pa94306

decides on reputation alone

That was the line I was referring to.

But it doesn’t really matter to my point if we imagine instead of hiring a person, we are choosing 15 interviewees out of 150 applicants. If anyone did that based solely on college attended, didn’t even look at degree, grades, or anything else on the submitted application, again to me that would be a clear firing offense.

By the way, a few times I have been in or around such application screening for highly selective positions. This was always made very clear: the policy is no one gets moved on in the process just because of where they went for school.

[Franklynn]

Brown University

[circuitrider]

You’re not wrong. There’s clearly - and has been for many years - a much keener interest in individual college “vibe”. The Ivies were once all about middle-class families aspiring to something very like noblesse oblige; there was an entire cottage industry devoted to outfitting future members of The Establishment in chinos, jackets and skinny ties. It was fun while it lasted. Young people affecting a broad “Hahvahd” accent or able to wear a straw boater with some degree of authenticity, occupy a very narrow strip of the marketplace today, even among full-pay families. This leaves room at the top for the Browns, the Wesleyans, the Vassars.

And, maybe the Stanfords, on the other end (when’s the last time you heard anyone complain that they award athletic scholarships?)

[jym626]

What “people” assume they are socially awkward? There are generic jokes that engineers may lack social skills, but it’s hard to fathom that people familiar with MIT would look down on it in that way.

[cquin85]

@pa94306

“Oh, I see you’re from MIT. Well, MIT alumni have a fabulous reputation among the people I work with, and so sure, I can meet you for coffee.”

Very good choice of example, if I do say so myself.

[cquin85]

@circuitrider

And, maybe the Stanfords, on the other end (when’s the last time you heard anyone complain that they award athletic scholarships?)

Nobody complains, but everybody knows there is an entire cohort of students there who are not like the other cohort in terms of their academic qualifications. Can’t play P5 football with a bunch of “real” Stanford kids. Not possible.

[circuitrider]

Sort of like a land-grant college.

[cquin85]

It’s just more of a severe cut at a place like Stanford, which is otherwise so very difficult to get into.

[tamagotchi]

@jym626

There are generic jokes that engineers may lack social skills, but it’s hard to fathom that people familiar with MIT would look down on it in that way.

As a woman, I did have some negative experiences at MIT with male engineers lacking social skills. Especially certain guys who had attended MIT for undergrad, grad, post doc, and then stayed there as professors. On the other hand, I quite liked some aspects of the outrageously nerdy culture that was prevalent there when I attended.

But I think MIT isn’t quite that way any more. Back in the day, MIT seemed to be looking for extremely pointy students, but I get the feeling that students are now much more diverse, well rounded, and socially competent.

[cquin85]

@tamagotchi

But I think MIT isn’t quite that way any more. Back in the day, MIT seemed to be looking for extremely pointy students, but I get the feeling that students are now much more diverse, well rounded, and socially competent.

Could it be that what was once considered “pointy” is now actually cool?

[tamagotchi]

Perhaps I should say something like “one-dimensional” instead of pointy? There were a lot of people who were very smart in some specific area, and were really focused on that to the detriment of many other things.

[cquin85]

Gemini says:

Is a class of highly “angular” specialists with different skills the same as “well rounded” in the way we typically use the term?

I myself have no idea but there is someone who comes on this forum who is an MIT admissions expert. I wonder how he would describe the MIT student profile today. And @Chekov has a child there, so he might have a view.

At any rate, I suspect Good Will Hunting did a lot to make MIT cool, which I assume came after your time there.

[pa94306]

@NiceUnparticularMan

But to make it the ONLY basis of our evaluation? That again would be a fireable offense in my organization.

But no one is really talking about this unrealistic construct, in which someone is handed a golden opportunity SOLELY on the basis on school attended, looking at nothing else.

[Humorously, I am reminded of that New Yorker-style cartoon where an executive sits behind a big desk and says “you say he is a Harvard man? hire him!”]

Rather, what I see is that prestige or halo effect translates into ‘thumbs on the scale’ or ‘shifting the burden of proof’, such as an elite law school admissions committee preferring a Princeton graduate over someone from University of Arizona when other parts of their application are otherwise similar, or a Nvidia hiring manager preferring to interview a MIT graduate over someone from LSU when their resumes are otherwise similar.

In summary, I actually believe reputational signals do get taken into account in the real world, even if they are not determinative. Such “signaling effects” are a distinct idea from “networking”.

[j_t_03]

@pa94306

But no one is really talking about this unrealistic construct, in which someone is handed a golden opportunity SOLELY on the basis on school attended, looking at nothing else.

This is very much true and prevalent, speaking from personal experience.

[jym626]

I have a very good female friend who went to MIT I am guessing before you (we are old!). She now participates in their UPOP program. It sounds wonderful and it’s likely any student at any school could benefit from such a program. https://upop.mit.edu/

One doesn’t have to be “nerdy” or quirky or whatever euphemism is appropriate.

[circuitrider]

Pa94306,

@pa94306

In my experience, the definition of a prestigious college is when it "shifts the burden of proof”. When people will assume, based largely on the school you attended, that you are smart and will add value… unless and until you demonstrate otherwise.

@pa94306

A huge part of human interactions revolves around “signaling effects”, which is precisely what you have identified in your comment. This is a well-studied social phenomenon, and led to a Nobel Prize about 25 years ago.

@pa94306

So “attending a prestigious university” is a quick and easy shorthand signal to get other people to give you the “benefit of doubt”, and to shift the “burden of proof” away from you (until and unless you demonstrate otherwise). That ain’t nothing.

@pa94306

Is it more socially palatable to substitute “brand” or “aura” or “signal” or “high reputation” instead of the word “prestige”? They are all getting at the same thing, which is the ability to “shift the burden of proof” – the gatekeepers you care about in life will assume having an elite school in your background means you are smart and will add value… unless and until you demonstrate otherwise.

@pa94306

in fact, the driving factor for many wise high school students is the “signaling” effects (to the next-level gatekeepers that are important to them) when they attend an elite / high reputation / strong brand / ‘prestige’ college.

@pa94306

Prestige of your college manifests in people you encounter giving you the benefit of the doubt, and it shifts the burden of proof: they will assume you are smart and can add value (unless and until you demonstrate otherwise).

@pa94306

I may have posted this before, but this fun article examines why certain schools are always featured in Hollywood plots. Does this correlate to prestige? No, since we already agreed that ‘prestige’ is impossible to precisely define…. what’s going on here is more of a vibe or a signal or some shorthand to quickly communicate something about a person. Why Does Every Teen in Every Movie Want to Go to Yale?

@pa94306

Maybe ‘prestige’ can be simply defined as the institution’s ability to transmit a SIGNAL of high reputation, capability, or value to a specific audience whose recognition you deem important to receive such signals.

@pa94306

But I see ‘prestige’ as different in that even when the party you’re trying to reach has no obvious connection to the school, the other party will still react positively to you simply because the school projects some “reputational signal”. The other party figures you’re smart and can add value, and decides on reputation alone to give you a shot. “Oh, I see you’re from MIT. Well, MIT alumni have a fabulous reputation among the people I work with, and so sure, I can meet you for coffee.”

@pa94306

But no one is really talking about this unrealistic construct, in which someone is handed a golden opportunity SOLELY on the basis on school attended, looking at nothing else.

Thanks for the clarification.

[Chekov]

@cquin85

Is a class of highly “angular” specialists with different skills the same as “well rounded” in the way we typically use the term?

I myself have no idea but there is someone who comes on this forum who is an MIT admissions expert. I wonder how he would describe the MIT student profile today. And @Chekov has a child there, so he might have a view.

One there, another graduated a few years ago, and now a new daughter-in-law, so make that three children!

I can’t compare MIT of today to MIT of yesteryear (old-timers seem to feel it used to be more hardcore:), nor do I know that there is a single type of student there (as in “brilliant but socially awkward” - I have certainly seen many there that do not fit that stereotype) - though it definitely still has the highest proportion of extreme STEM talent outliers of any other school in the US and likely the world, and in that particular way its reputation is still well-earned.

[twoinanddone]

@cquin85

Could it be that what was once considered “pointy” is now actually cool?

Or that elementary schools and high schools are requiring kids to be less pointy? They may require an art class or foreign language. Maybe they are better at including kids who are in a G&T program to do other things with the rest of the school.

I have one STEM kid and one English and history kid. They took the same classes until high school and even then there were a lot of requirements that had them overlapping in classes. They STEM kid can write well but unfortunately the history kid can’t add and subtract very well.

[circuitrider]

There’s a fine line between networking and nepotism.