Is Prestige Still about Ivies and Rankings?

[blossom]

I’ll push back on grunt work. My kids did grunt work and it was a very positive learning experience.

Kid A learned that programming expertise is highly valued on any research team. Also learned that the pecking order one assumes (grunt at the bottom all the way up to PI) does not mean that the lowly freshman cannot ask for help for the leader- and get it. Nobody wants wasted time and energy, and the project lead has the most to lose if the team is spinning its wheels. That kid got great mentoring from the “famous professor” at the top of the pecking order. Gotta show initiative, gotta show up. Not bad lessons to learn from one summer doing grunt work.

Kid B learned that content knowledge– in some instances- is highly overrated, and that the alleged “here are the pre-requisites for applying for a job in my lab” are suggestions, not requirements. Professors don’t want to teach an undergrad how to write a coherent summary or edit a 500 page deck into a 10 page “executive summary” for a presentation to some committee at the university on “here’s what we’re doing”. But the other stuff- very generous with their time, as are the grad students.

I cringe when I see folks disparage grunt work. Do 19 year old kids really think they’re going to find a cure for pancreatic cancer in 10 or 12 weeks? If so- they need grunt work to understand the pace of the lab, and to understand why even when you are standing on the shoulders of giants, you yourself are not yet a giant.

[tamagotchi]

@blossom

I cringe when I see folks disparage grunt work.

There is a difference between being treated as a member of the team who is helping out with useful grunt work as they learn the ropes, vs. just being assigned menial tasks without being offered any opportunity to advance or learn. Both of these types of grunt work exist.

[cquin85]

@circuitrider

This. Wesleyan strangely enough, gets no REU funding even though it is, fundamentally speaking, a liberal arts college (instead, there is institutional money available for summer research.) Grunt work is plentiful, but so are Wesleyan PIs with multi-year grants. The grunt work often leads to projects that require undergraduates to stay after graduation. When that happens, they have the option of earning a tuition-free master’s degree.

One exception to this (at least one of which I’m aware) is the Keck Northeast Astronomy Consortium, of which Wesleyan is a lead member and the administrative hub.

Keck Northeast Astronomy Consortium (KNAC)

Wesleyan-Led Astronomy Consortium Joins Association of Universities for...

[circuitrider]

I wouldn’t call the Keck Consortium an exception so much as an alternative to the “Research Experiences for Undergraduates” program run by the NSF. If the initials REU are being used as shorthand for “summer research”, I did not mean to imply that no summertime work takes place at Wesleyan. It certainly does.

[ucbalumnus]

@blossom

Kid B learned that content knowledge– in some instances- is highly overrated, and that the alleged “here are the pre-requisites for applying for a job in my lab” are suggestions, not requirements.

Presumably, they did not get the purple squirrel that they wanted.

[cquin85]

@circuitrider

I wouldn’t call the Keck Consortium an exception so much as an alternative to the “Research Experiences for Undergraduates” program run by the NSF. If the initials REU are being used as shorthand for “summer research”, I did not mean to imply that no summertime work takes place at Wesleyan. It certainly does.

I was responding to your comment that Wes gets no REU funding. Keck is an REU and they get funding for that position(s). But, no, I did not read your comment that Wes doesn’t have summertime research work. Far from it. Among LACs, Wes would be a target school if you’re looking for a robust research environment.

[circuitrider]

“While we hosted an NSF REU for most of our history, several years ago we transitioned to a dues-only structure for supporting our activities.” https://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2026AAS...24746204R/abstract

It’s just a matter of where they get their funding. Sounds like it’s self-funded through membership dues.

[cquin85]

True. For most, or a good part, of its history, it was funded by the NSF.

[Chekov]

@MWolf

Incorporating undergraduates in research will not help produce more publishable results

I can’t speak to national averages, but it’s not been my kids’ experience.

[MWolf]

That is why I wrote “research universities” (or I should have). At LACs, research that incorporates undergraduates are the rule, rather than the exception. The primary focus of LA faculty is supposed to be teaching and training of undergraduates, and that includes research the includes undergraduates in the same way the grants from research universities incorporate graduate students. That means that undergraduates are engaged in research activity that can produce publications.

If I’m not mistaken, I also think that REUs are generally used to add undergraduates to existing research projects that are funded by NSF, or to fund students at REU sites, most of which are at research universities. LACs don’t have the research infrastructures to host an REU site, and undergraduates are generally part of research proposals from LACs, so RE supplements aren’t needed.

@blossom

I’ll push back on grunt work. My kids did grunt work and it was a very positive learning experience.

I very definitely did NOT criticize grunt work. I’m a huge supporter of undergraduates doing grunt work. Grunt work is where students learn the very basics of research.

Every person with a PhD in science started with grunt work, and those that didn’t ended up spending more time learning how to do their own research as graduates that those with tech experience. They are also invaluable for research.

I was explaining why REU money isn’t being used. Faculty don’t apply for REU supplements for students who do tech work. REU supplements are specifically for supporting “publishable” research work (or at least for a poster or a talk).

@cquin85

One exception to this (at least one of which I’m aware) is the Keck Northeast Astronomy Consortium, of which Wesleyan is a lead member and the administrative hub.

Unlike individual LACs, Keck does have the infrastructure to support an REU site.

@Chekov

@MWolf

Incorporating undergraduates in research will not help produce more publishable results

I can’t speak to national averages, but it’s not been my kids’ experience.

It is not the typical outcome. As a rule the “research output” of an undergraduate is far less than that of the faculty, had the faculty member invested that tie and effort in their own research.

Just so people understand. Research experiences by undergraduates are extremely important and extremely value. However, their value is generally not added to the T&P files of faculty at research universities.

To bring us back to the topic of the thread - prestigious awards in science are based on research results, and there are no Field Medals or National Medals of Science based on the accomplishment a faculty member has in mentoring undergraduates and supporting undergraduate research. The AAAS does not bestow a fellowship based on number of undergraduates a faculty member has mentored, nor is their any other prize provided by the AAAs for the faculty member who has had the largest positive impact of undergraduates.

To fully bring us back, the lack of prestige that is provided by mentorship and support of students is one of the reasons that I am just a little bit questioning of the prestige of many of these awards, especially the Fellowships.

[ECCA2026]

@cquin85

It’s just more of a severe cut at a place like Stanford, which is otherwise so very difficult to get into.

I’m not sure it is easier to get into Stanford as an athlete. The academic standards are lower than for other Stanford (non-legacy/donor) students, but the athletic standard is quite high. Very few people have the combo of the academic and athletic qualities to make the cut at Stanford as a student athlete.

[Thorsmom66]

A former classmate of one of my kids is on the Stanford basketball team. He was a solid, but not top, student in HS. Absent bball he would have had zero chance of getting into Stanford. Zero.

[Mwfan1921]

@Thorsmom66

Absent bball he would have had zero chance of getting into Stanford. Zero.

Definitely true of some athletes at Stanford. There can also be varying academic requirements/ranges by sport.

[Thorsmom66]

Of course some sports have a higher academic threshold than others. In my (admittedly limited) experience with kids from our HS, the ones is certain sports - football, lacrosse, basketball - have been admitted to elite schools with less than top academics (one kid was forced to attend a PG year to get his academics up to par). On the other hand, kids I know that row have been really excellent students - on par with other admits.

[ECCA2026]

That is not inconsistent with my point. I never said the academic standards were the same for athletes, let alone basketball players. In fact I explicitly said they were lower. “Absent basketball,” is doing a lot of work in your reply. Most Stanford athletes are elite level high school athletes and the academic standards for athletes there are generally higher than most other elite athlete level universities. The universe of high schoolers that have the combination of athletic and academic ability to go there is quite small generally.

Moreover, men’s basketball and football tend to be outliers in athletics and are not representative of the much larger pool of athletes. Their popularity and revenue generation make them both harder sports to rise to the top in, and typically sports that have lower academic standards than others. Using basketball and football as representative examples of the academic ability of “athletes” is often misleading. I believe that is also true at Stanford.

That said, to say it is easier for a basketball player to get into Stanford significantly underestimates how hard it is to be a basketball player Stanford actually wants who also has the academic ability Stanford requires of them.

[skieurope]

Users are welcome to start a new thread about academic standards for athletes. But for this thread, let’s return to topic.

[circuitrider]

@MWolf

If I’m not mistaken, I also think that REUs are generally used to add undergraduates to existing research projects that are funded by NSF, or to fund students at REU sites, most of which are at research universities. LACs don’t have the research infrastructures to host an REU site, and undergraduates are generally part of research proposals from LACs, so RE supplements aren’t needed.

That’s interesting. I wonder whether a lot of REU funding at Wesleyan simply flies under the radar in that the PIs routinely set aside x number of dollars for BOTH grad and undergrad students, but - maybe, for whatever reason, the REU sourcing goes unacknowledged when the award is publicized?:

Wave-Transport Lab Receives DoD, NSF Grants to Support Research

Barth, Patalano Receive $1.09M NSF Grant to Support Numerical Cognition Research

[gardenstategal]

@anotheroboemom

So my point is, prestige can be very much environment/audience dependent. You music aficionados are impressed while many people see him in his Curtis sweatshirt and think it is his name.

Just wanted to say that I was at the Philadelphia Orchestra the night they gave out their annual awards. One started by saying “We don’t want to make this too obvious from the start, so we’ll start by saying that this year’s winner is a grad of Curtis. Everyone who might fit that description, raise your hand.” And it seemed like it was easily half the orchestra!