Lots of people in finance and consulting are ‘innovating’ and ‘working to address pressing problems in society’. Have you worked in either of these areas?
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I have no doubt that there are people in finance and consulting who do good things. I am just a little weirded out by a process that claims to carefully select a class for diverse interests… but then 4 years later gives us a class where 50% have chosen business. I would be equally concerned if Penn was producing 50% doctors or 50% lawyers, and I have no doubt that doctors and lawyers do good.
As is frequently said, half the students start out with their major as undecided and the other half change their major.
Are you implying that students are gaming the system to make their applications more attractive to the admissions office by pretending to have interests that aren’t real?
Because the areas of finance and consulting are very broad they attract people with a variety of different majors/backgrounds/interests…so econ majors, lab science majors, history majors may all be working alongside each other in these jobs.
Finance isn’t all (or even most) IB, consulting isn’t all (or most) general strategy consulting. I use the IB and strategy consulting examples because I’m inferring those are the jobs some don’t support? I doubt many who react poorly to people who desire these jobs even know what people in these jobs do.
My point is there really any difference between an IB analyst, or a financial analyst at a consumer products company or a chemical manufacturer? These people in finance were from all the various majors I listed above, and more.
Similarly, is there a difference between consultants working in hospital operations, or pharma R&D, or utilities/renewables?
I don’t think all these people have the same interests…which seems to get at your belief that these people don’t have ‘diverse interests.’
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I know students who apply to Ivies with a major that is more likely to get them in
Many of the Ivies don’t admit by major. At a school that doesn’t, say Harvard, how would a potential applicant know if there is a major that is more likely to get them in?
And for the schools that do admit by major, like Cornell, they don’t publish the acceptance rates by major (just by school). So again…no data that would suggest a certain major is more likely to result in an acceptance.
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Well, since you are well versed in the details of IB and consulting, and you think it’s a good thing that more and more Ivy grads are chosing these fields, I will have to take your word on that. (Should we be concerned and help Yale get its numbers up?)
I never said that, nor do I have (or have I seen) data that show that.
Well, in any case you don’t see it as any sort of problem, would that be fair to say?
No, I don’t think it’s a problem.
Where do you think these students (who have diverse interests and majors) should be working instead, if finance and consulting jobs aren’t worthy?
I will note again that there are many jobs available in both those areas, which is likely another reason many graduating seniors choose them…people go where the jobs are.
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I worked in finance (not IB) for 15 years and now I’m a consultant so, yes, to both. I am well aware that finance and consulting come in many flavors and that, yes, there are innovators in these spaces. I just think it is unfortunate that so many kids from the Ivies gravitate to such a narrow group of careers.
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Our career experience sounds similar.
I guess that’s the difference…I see both finance and consulting functional areas as large and varied rather than narrow. There are many types of of jobs/roles, in many different industries, all attracting students of various majors and interests.
I’m truthfully glad you don’t think it is a problem. You are on the inside, so what you say should be reassuring.
Heck, maybe it’s just the new world order; the best and brightest go into the business side of innovation, and somebody else does the innovating part of innovation, so to speak. I suppose if Salk and Borlaug were alive today they would do the diverse things you indicate consultants and bankers do, and somebody else would mess with the petri dishes and wheat stalks. In other words, a class choosing 50% business doesn’t mean anything wrong with the college admissions process after all.
(But your part about “people go where the jobs are,” I still don’t buy. Ivy graduates have MANY different jobs available to them, not just IB and consulting. It’s something else that is funneling them, I think.)
Just to be clear I have been talking about all finance, not just IB (no difference to me between an IB analyst and a financial analyst anywhere else). There are a lot of financial analyst type jobs available to graduating undergrads.
I think there is a not insignificant number students from all income levels who are looking for ROI on their college financial investment (sometimes at behest of their parents). We definitely see that here on CC. I have seen that in real life.
And again, I don’t know that there is a higher proportion of Ivy grads (just using the group you are focused on) going into finance and consulting than there used to be…I haven’t seen that data.
Nor have I seen data showing that there is a lower proportion of Ivy grads going into science research (based on your Salk and Borlaug mention). Do you know of any data? Are there people talking about that being a problem? Genuinely curious, because I don’t know.
As a certain former Wall Street CEO said, they do God’s work 
They still have to indicate 2-3 fields of study that would like to pursue. So this is where they express that they may want to major in government/policy etc if they are underrepresneted in such fields of study
Consulting is a well trodden path into Product Management and Program Management at top tech companies, particularly FANG type companies. A candidate with 4 years of consulting experience is far more likely to have developed experience in key capabilities than an engineer of coder with the same years of experience.
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You can’t just compare the cost of McGill -for a Canadian- with the cost of UMass fora resident. (sorry, my quote isn’t working since the upgrade to the system).
There is a difference in the tax structure so one could argue that the tuition has already been prepaid by the Canadian or by the resident. There is a difference on the cost of living for the professors so the pay rates might be difference.
There was some talk above (and I know it was just dreaming and wishing) that there should be a national public school in the US. We couldn’t even do that and have the state pay the tuition for their accepted students because each state funds their public schools in different ways. My friend worked in school finance and he was always hopping up and down that Colorado with a fairly low income tax rate and low property tax rate only funded universities at about $5000/student/year whereas Wyoming with no income tax and a low tax rate funded students at about $15000 per year. Colorado has a high tuition rate (at least at CU) and Wyoming is practically free for residents (they have so many scholarship programs that most pay nothing). California with high tax rates may be able to fund at a higher rate, while NJ with screaming high tax rates still has high tuition costs.
Canada seems to get the high tax/low cost of higher ed right, but that doesn’t mean Massachusetts got it wrong. Each has to do it within their tax structure. Each family gets to figure out which is best for the family finances. I took advantage of Wyoming’s low cost for my daughter, but that doesn’t mean it would be the better choice for another family that wants to go to Colorado.
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I haven’t seen the raw data myself. I’m just going from the many articles written about it over the last 15-20 years. Multiple articles from the Ivys’ school papers (e.g.the one I posted above from Penn showing the rates since 2018), the popular press (e.g. WSJ, the Times, the Post, the Guardian, The Financial Times, Money Magazine etc.) Also a number of academic and thesis papers. But again, I haven’t seen the data, and in any case this is not my area of expertise, so perhaps the reporting is mistaken. There are lots of worries expressed in these papers about students being “funneled” away from public service, academia, science etc into “business” as broadly defined, but if, as you indicate, high numbers of students in these areas is a good (or at least neutral) thing, then perhaps all these papers are just a lot of wasted ink.
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