<p>I don’t agree that the Ivy League is worthless…</p>
<p>OVERRATED? Absolutely!!!
WORTHLESS? No.</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.csis.gvsu.edu/~mcguire/worth_college_leagues.html[/url]”>http://www.csis.gvsu.edu/~mcguire/worth_college_leagues.html</a></p>
<p>What do you think?</p>
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<p>Wow! What a revelation. Worth the price of a subscription. I would never have thought that out on my own!</p>
<p>What about a study pitting Princeton’s competent grads vs. Podunk’s competent grads?</p>
<p>As I have said many times when Dale and Kreuger is dragged out yet again, I really don’t give a rat’s patootie what kind of economic “success” my kids are. It’s not why I sent them to college.</p>
<p>The study by Krueger is often mentioned in the press yet an examination of the actual study shows it is based on some shaky assumptions and methodology. Krueger is supposed to have done a study that looks at kids accepted to schools with varying selectivity and found that which one they chose didn’t affect their income. </p>
<p>There are some problems with his study, though. To begin, selectivity is assumed to be the same thing as average SAT score of the college; a college with a higher average SAT is supposed to be more selective. Turns out there were rankings of the schools done at the time by a publisher named Barrons that didn’t march in lockstep with SAT scores, and Krueger actually found that when this ranking was used instead of the SAT scores there was a statistically significant link between the school and earnings. Oops!!</p>
<p>Not only that, but to simplify his analysis Krueger didn’t even use the school SAT scores directly. The clever approach in Krueger’s study was to used matched pairs; if Joe got into A and B but attended A how did he turn out? And lets compare him to Sally who got into the same pair but attended B. Unfortunately Krueger didn’t have enough pairs to do the study using individual schools, causing him to place the schools into baskets that had average SAT scores within 25 points of one another. So Krueger didn’t even compare one school against another (even though that’s how the conclusions are always pitched in the press), but baskets of schools against other baskets. Any effect that may have been present would be further watered down by this approach.</p>
<p>To little surprise once you understand this (and to no mention in the press), when a weak measure of selectivity is used and when even this measure is diluted still further, no link remained to be found.</p>
<p>I wrote a more detailed examination of Krueger’s study about a year ago to the day (seems like these “it doesn’t matter where you go” claims surface every year). For those interested, see the link at <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=145732&page=3&pp=15[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=145732&page=3&pp=15</a></p>
<p>But does Krueger from Princeton doing a weak study in itself suggest that his Ivy education was not so hot? Or does he teach at Princeton? What would that suggest? Donning flame-proof suit.</p>
<p>Bethie: It’s worse than that: BS from Cornell, Ph.D. from Harvard, prof at Princeton! Could he not have done better than these worthless Ivies?</p>
<p>Garland: Of every post I have ever seen on CC, your statement about not sending your children for economic reasons is, without question, the MOST REFRESHING response I have ever seen. I completely agree with you that economic success should not be the main reason why parents want to see their children go to college. There are so many other more important reasons to go to college!</p>
<p>Just curious…what would you list as the primary benefits you’d like to see your children derive from a college education?</p>
<p>marite: Just wondering…Does a professor’s credentials (educationally) have any impact on his/her effectiveness as a college professor? If so, please explain or give some concrete examples.</p>
<p>Thanks.</p>
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<p>Good catch! I didn’t know about that particular problem with the Krueger and Dale study. What I think about that study is </p>
<p>a) it is badly in need of replication, and right now I doubt that it is true, but </p>
<p>b) even if it is true, it says that there is an elite college advantage for lower-income students, and </p>
<p>c) even if the study doesn’t clearly show an elite college advantage for higher-income students, the study’s conclusions apply ONLY to students who both applied to and were admitted to elite colleges before deciding to attending less elite colleges. </p>
<p>In other words, I still think there is value in a young person preparing for and applying to elite colleges. It’s a free country, and not everyone thinks so, but then again not everyone thinks that college of any kind is necessary for young people.</p>
<p>OWB–Okay, you called me on this one, let’s see if I can give you a reasonable answer.</p>
<p>I want my kids to develop their abilities to reason as much as possible, getting as stretched as they can. I want them to be immersed in an experience of learning for its own sake, surrounded by a high percentage of peers who feel the same way, and taught by instructors who also feel that this is important.</p>
<p>I want them to become good citizens, which means learning how to question, how to evaluate, how to ultimately judge what’s right and wrong, what makes sense and what doesn’t, what’s going right, and what should be different.</p>
<p>I want them to always be forming new questions they don’t have an answer to, and to acquire a few tools to help them find those answers.</p>
<p>I’d like them to be exposed to the best minds from throughout history, so that they’ll have an idea of what’s been thought about, what conclusions other brilliant minds have offered, and be able to have independent thoughts about those ideas they encounter.</p>
<p>I’d like them to read a lot of good books. </p>
<p>I’d like them to have a lot of off-the-cuff, serendipitous experiences with their fellow students, whether it’s traveling, exploring different foods or music or arts, having late night “philosophical” conversations about the meaning of life, or playing late night tag across a snow-covered quad.</p>
<p>I hope that as they go on from college, they have a better idea of who they are, what’s important to them, and maybe, but not definitely, have an idea where they might be going next. I do expect them to support themselves, but since they’ve both been imbued with an ability to get by on little, I don’t see that as problematical.</p>
<p>I hope they make some good friends.</p>
<p>And most of all, I hope that they have a ton of fun in the process, and allow themselves to be a little bit goofy at every opportunity.</p>
<p>Well, that’s tonight’s version of my answer, anyway.</p>
<p>I want all the things Garland wants.<br>
I also think many of these things could be obtained at non-Ivies. For my S, a factor was size. There are not that many mid-sized research universities with excellent departments in his particular field.</p>
<p>
Hey, funny thing … I looked at my old post, and I was replying to NotQuiteOld a year ago! Maybe a friend of “old but wise”?</p>
<p>Old but Wise:</p>
<p>I have no idea what the answer to your question is. I never wondered about the institutions my own profs had attended.</p>
<p>To answer the orginal question, yes the level of competition in many Ivy League sports could probaby be described as “worthless”.</p>
<p>Garland: First of all, I was not trying to “call you” on your response. I was completely sincere when I commented on how refreshing your answer was.</p>
<p>Your most recent response was absolutely wonderful…one I hope that EVERY parent on CC will read. You have the whole “college thing” in proper perspective, and many other parents can learn a great deal from what you have to say!!!</p>
<p>It would be wonderful for you to post that response (verbatim) on the “College Search” part of this website, so STUDENTS can benefit from your wisdom. </p>
<p>Thanks!!!</p>
<p>mikemac: Thanks for your input on the Krueger and Dale study. I look further into what you had to say.</p>
<p>Sorry OWB, I should have put a smiley face. I knew you were sincere, but I also felt called to put my money where my mouth is, and give a solid answer. That’s what I meant. I appreciate your kind words.</p>
<p>Garland: Any chance you can put your post on the “College Search” section so high school students can see it?</p>
<p>Juniors are now at a point where they are kicking into high gear with the college search process. I think it would be great for them to see some sensible comments such as yours, rather than the typical frenzy of things surrounding their college search.</p>
<p>I guarantee you, many juniors would love to hear what you had to say.</p>
<p>Done! (10 characters)</p>
<p>Garland – loved your list! Now, I wonder how it compares with what our kids want out of college. 
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<p>I was just thinking about this. My S’s taking fencing this semester. He described how it’s not the way he would imagine, and that they spend all their time practicing footwork. On the other hand, he’s sticking with it because the professor has an “amazing life story” – Hungarian, has coached the Czech? Olympic team, is about 5 feet tall, and an expert in sports psychology who “makes you want to do well for him.” As my kid was going on about his P.E. prof, I found myself just thrilled, thinking this is exactly the kind of experience I’d hope for my kid to have in college, and it has nothing to do with anything except the opportunity to meet interesting people with fascinating life stories.</p>