<p>Public information- schools profile stats:
<a href=“https://www3.imsa.edu/system/files/2012%20Profile_0.pdf[/url]”>https://www3.imsa.edu/system/files/2012%20Profile_0.pdf</a>
Impressive # of NM semifinalists and AIME qualifiers. SAT and Science AP’s (withexception of Calculus BC) surprising for such a school.</p>
<p>"So let’s see, if a student scores higher than 1390 but doesn’t go to one of those super magnet schools and took sciences that are easier than college class ones then what does that actually say about the contribution of those amazing science classes in student performance. "</p>
<p>Surely, Lakemom, you are not suggesting that the SAT performance is the goal of education? Who cares what the kids in the magnet school got on their SATs. They most likely got a fine education.</p>
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<p>In the absence of better evidence to the contrary, certainly. You got any?</p>
<p>Have you been following that thread about magnet schools redpoint? </p>
<p>I am not the one who indicated that I would not send my child to a school who did not have science classes that were more difficult than the ones my child’s HS had. I absolutely don’t think you can compare high school classes to a college ones. </p>
<p>So after several postings, when I heard that the SAT scores are not really any higher than those of motivated students that go to schools without super hard science classes it kind of shows that it is not the caliber of the class but the caliber of the kid.</p>
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<p>Why not? What’s the difference between a year-long organic chemistry course at a magnet school and one at a university. I didn’t see any difference? </p>
<p>My posts were fairly long, but if I was to explain fully the similarities and differences between the curriculum at my magnet school and at various universities, it would be even longer. I’d say the curriculum is similar to a place like Williams, with a few classes that are crazy hard. Also, the way math is taught is truly unique. </p>
<p>BTW, the school and question generally challenges Thomas Jefferson for the number of AIME qualifiers.</p>
<p>And the issue of standardized scores is not so simple; as someone said, they don’t teach to the AP in general–it sounds like an excuse, but it’s not.</p>
<p>The environment in HS is not like college. I had 80 people in my college chem class in a large lecture hall. My professor had traveled from England just to teach that one quarter of chem. I was in chem lab with students from all over the country. </p>
<p>It isn’t just the material or the book. It is all that surrounds the learning.</p>
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<p>Well, ok, that’s why I said going to a residential magnet high school is like going to an top-notch liberal arts college like Williams. I’m not sure why learning in a big lecture hall with lots of people is necessarily better.</p>
<p>And meeting people from diverse backgrounds is great, but it doesn’t help you learn math and science better.</p>
<p>The size of the class wasn’t better just different. Like being in a small city or big one. And the questions and comments from others in the class does make a difference. The quality of the class isn’t just whether the teacher is good or not, it is also the energy of those who are taking it.</p>
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<p>At many schools, biology majors and pre-meds take a less rigorous version of physics than the physics courses taken by physics and engineering majors. General chemistry sometimes has a less rigorous version for biology majors and pre-meds, and organic chemistry often does, compared to the courses for chemistry majors.</p>
<p>Re: <a href=“https://www3.imsa.edu/system/files/2012%20Profile_0.pdf[/url]”>https://www3.imsa.edu/system/files/2012%20Profile_0.pdf</a></p>
<p>That is definitely a super-elite high school, with many post-calculus-BC math courses and organic chemistry, which is ordinarily a college sophomore level course. As a high school catering to the top students in math and science, it would not be surprising if its college-freshman-level (including AP) science courses were more rigorous than the non-honors freshman courses at many universities, who offer those courses to non-advanced college freshmen.</p>
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<p>Ah, the beauty of CC. It lets people take phony data - either make it up data or badly misinterpret it - then draw broad, sweeping generalizations from the phony data.</p>
<p>Collegealum has already pointed out the data issues; actually, the most recent SAT scores, for the class of 2011, are down a bit from the 1390 he reported for the class of 2009, at 1375. I’d point out a significant imbalance, the Math is 717 and the CR is 658, which is pretty much what I’d expect from a math-and-science magnet. I’d also point out that the 717 puts the mid-point junior in the 96th percentile nationally and the 770 (75th percentile) put the junior in the 99th percentile nationally. But whatever.</p>
<p>But then there’s the sweeping generalization: “Once you get past those classes for a science major though, no high school has classes THAT hard.” To make that statement, one would presume the speaker actually had some evidence - like perhaps a survey of all 26,000+ high schools in the United States, or at least a representative sample, the same for all 3,000+ colleges, with clearly defined criteria for assessing the rigor. But I rather doubt mncollegemom can point to any such evidence.</p>
<p>To be honest, I’m a little confused by the entire AP is (or isn’t) as hard (or is harder) than most (some) college courses. I will tell you this though- my D’s HS is a very good school, but is not a magnet school. I have recently been talking to recent grads who have gone on to both UVA and W&M about how hard they found those colleges compared to our HS, and ALL of them said that they had many classes that were easier than the same AP classes they took at our HS. This may be anecdotal but it supports Annasdads supposition.</p>
<p>Since I just got home from work, I’d like to echo Nbrd (#258)–at my west coast school (late 60’s-early 70’s) they would always announce the Slippery Rock score and the crowd always cheered. Someone on an earlier thread did a search and found the original college announcer who started the trend.
I also like the Byrds quote in one of the above posts (don’t remember the number).
Actually, we had toga parties PRE animal house and we survived.
Now back to our regularly scheduled program…</p>
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<p>Northwestern does have a harder track for intro physics…I thought it was only open to integrated science but maybe the physics majors can take it. It uses Purcell for E&M.</p>
<p>The thing is that at many good schools you can coast by taking the standard curriculum. My friends tell me that molecular bio at Princeton is super easy and has all the premeds, but that chemistry is very hard and most majors have a GPA close to 3.0/4.0. I bet this is different at different places–I’d bet the bio at Swarthmore is not like that. For people who did well at the magnet schools, applied math is a breeze at Harvard or MIT, but not theoretical math. Similarly, no one says the engineering classes at MIT are easier than the math/science classes at high school. At Caltech, you are toast no matter which route you take. </p>
<p>You can still learn and get a good education by taking the standard route, but unless you go out of your way, college will likely be easier even if you go to a strong one.
There was a recent article on this topic in NYT which profiled Thomas Jefferson High School graduates.</p>
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<p>This is not too surprising.</p>
<p>Take freshman calculus, for example. High school AP calculus BC courses supposedly cater to the top students in math (reaching calculus earlier than the normal time, which is college freshman year), and the BC syllabus is supposed to be equivalent to the freshman calculus course for math, physics and engineering majors*. But in college, there are many freshmen who are (a) not advanced in math (so they are taking calculus as college freshmen, not high school seniors or earlier), and/or (b) not intending to go into a math-intensive major (but are going into a “light calculus” major like business or biology, or doing pre-med). For them, the college may offer a less difficult “calculus for business and biology majors” course, which is likely easier than a high school AP course.</p>
<p>Something similar likely exists for other subjects like chemistry and physics in many colleges.</p>
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<li>Yes, some would argue whether it actually is (at least at some schools), but that is not the point here.</li>
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<p>Momofwildchild…I’d love that!</p>
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<p>LOL, thank you. I always used to cheer along with everyone else, while always wondering “WTH?!”</p>
<p>If you use the criterion that “the college should not have any courses easier or less rigorous than the student’s high school”, then any student who attends a high school that has calculus BC would be left with very few colleges to choose from. Meaning that any college which offers any of the following would be screened out:</p>
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<li>Any precalculus math courses.</li>
<li>Any “calculus for business or biology majors” courses.</li>
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<p>So that would leave very few colleges:</p>
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<li>Super-elite STEM-focus schools.</li>
<li>Possibly some STEM-only schools.</li>
<li>Specialty schools (non-STEM) that offer no math courses at all.</li>
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<p>Of course, then those few remaining schools may be screened out by considering other subjects. For example, if the high school offers AP English, then any college offering remedial level English would be screened out. Then go on to science, where any college offering “biology/chemistry/physics for poets” type of courses would be screened out. Etc.</p>
<p>What I’m hearing is that Annasdad’s kid’s high school is better in the sciences than almost all colleges.</p>
<p>I find it hard to believe that this school’s facilities and faculty are on par with Williams which has some of the most fabulous science labs and faculty amongst LACs (I’ve have knowledge of the quality of both). Oh…maybe Williams is one of the 5 or 10 schools that bests that High School.</p>
<p>I checked out the chemistry program at Williams, and it has a more expansive curriculum in this area than a magnet high school could have. However, I think the organic chemistry class and biochem is probably the same (having taken orgo at a top 10 university.) And I think the rigor and depth in the classes they do have is equal, and in certain areas (bio, chem, even math) the breadth of classes can pretty much cover the requirements for a major at most universities. In the case of math, there are some classes that are harder than classes that would be offered at Williams (like, for instance, the multivariable calculus class that was on the level of MIT’s more rigorous MVC class which I mentioned earlier.)</p>
<p>Perhaps I underestimated Williams. I knew a person who went to a top 5 liberal arts college and she said her college didn’t offer organometallic chemistry–it seemed like the course offering in chem was somewhat like that at my high school. I knew Swarthmore was particularly sciency, but I thought the other LACs were a bit more limited like the one my friend attended. I don’t remember the exact one.</p>
<p>For the record, just about every research university will offer organometallic chemistry and/or quantum mechanics, something which magnet schools don’t offer. However, I’d still say that the vast majority of them have easier or similar level to the magnet high schools we are discussing, even if these classes aren’t offered.</p>