Kind of a long post - but I very much relate! I also have a current sophomore who has never been crazy about math but excels in other areas. She has also had some not-great math teachers. We have been fortunate to have a wonderful tutor who has helped her to learn.
She was in honors algebra II for a few weeks at the beginning of the school year, but dropped to non-honors because it was too stressful. She was so lucky to get an amazing, super clear math teacher in the non-honors class who has really been life changing and increased her math confidence greatly.
That being said, we are also trying to figure out the next two years like you. The AP stats teachers at the high school are super well regarded, the pre-calc teachers on the other hand⊠not so much. One is known to be especially confusing. Even though her high school only requires one more year of math, I agree with other posters though that a fourth year of math is probably good for college admissions. Our plan right now is for her to try pre-calc, see what teacher she gets, and if itâs too much after a week, switch to AP stats. Then she will take-pre-calc online her senior year (she is very comfortable in online classes). How does your daughter feel about online classes? I know some students donât like them, but for some, like mine, the do-it-at-your-own pace and time is very appealing and less stressful.
In terms of, âis there hope?â Yes! I have an older daughter who âhates math.â Her words. And âhatesâ science. She got through high school without taking calculus, chemistry, or physics. She took 4 years of science and 4 years of math, but not those classes. She also did not send SAT scores because she couldnât break 1400 with her low math scores. However, she is a truly gifted historian and writer and that came through in her applications. She was the editor of her school paper, won writing awards at school, and took numerous community college classes in history and journalism. Her application talked about her love of history and her recommendations were excellent. She got into most every college she applied to, including a number that are referred to here as T20. She is thriving in college, making the deanâs list, getting research grants, looking to PhD programs, and yes even getting through those few quantitative and science requirements (they are kind of made for non-math/science majors). In my opinion - she knows the math that matters - budgeting! We send her zero spending money and she works part time and manages her money to pay for eating out or anything else she wants to do. And she saves. She knows the math she needs for everyday life.
I think there are so many students being pushed ahead in math these days, that completing high levels will not help a student stand out in admissions any more than anything else. Our public school has 60+ students completing multi-variable calculus every year so that no longer makes one unique. Your daughterâs passions sound so interesting. Encourage her to continuing pursuing her own path and she will stand out. Colleges will see her for the unique person she is.
Your daughter is a year away from having to decide whether or not to take a math course senior year. A lot can change in a year. First, she will have had more time to heal from her concussion. Secondly, she will have a better idea of which colleges interest her. Really wanting to apply to a school requiring four years of math means she takes math senior year. Colleges of interest are satisfied with three years, she takes a computer science course, personal finance, or other course in lieu of math.
To me, the more pressing question is âis AP Stats the appropriate course for her to take junior year?â Ask your daughterâs current math teacher which math course he/she would recommend and why?
Iâve always been horrible in math. I topped out in algebra 2 senior year. My kids took algebra 2 as freshman. Thank goodness my husband enjoys it, I wasnât any help (I majored in English). I get it. I think 4 years of regular math might be better for college applications, and actually learning math.
I was a horrible math student throughout middle and high school. The reason for that was I was at an âlow incomeâ elementary school where the exceptional woman who previously taught 5th grade math, retired. It was hard to get new teachers excited about coming to a low income school in an unsafe and unwelcoming area.
The teacher who replaced her didnât teach us math, ever. She was a former retiree who the school had to call back into work. During math time we learned to crochet and do loom art. During other subjects, she borrowed worksheets from neighboring teachers and handed them out, but never lectured nor taught us anything. We were allowed to read independently, a lot! So my fifth grade was basically lost.
When we moved on to six grade, the teacher was overwhelmed with a full classroom of students who didnât have abstract math skills. She tried to catch us up, but she had other skills to teach us and everyone was at different levels in the other subjects.
I learned math in college because a number of our classes required advanced math skills, especially physics. I took the basic algebra math course, and I had a tutor. The tutor realized that I was overwhelmed and he was shocked that I slid by my math courses in high school.
In high school, I could do basic algebra and almost failed geometry, but I got through this by the skin of my teeth because the teachers knew I was respectful and a hard worker.
I had to start with third grade math in college. With a lot of patience and time in college, I steadily grew in my math skills. I still donât like math but I made sure that my kids had strong and advanced foundations in math.
Please get her out of that advanced math class because she is going to feel awful, if she doesnât already feel that. I know I had a feeling of helplessness, in high school. I wouldnât want anyone to experience that.
Probably because they are terribly understaffed. Ours have about 300 students each, their most important job is getting students to graduation. They have a 20 minute college meeting junior year, send recommendation letters, and send transcripts. Thatâs all they have time for unfortunately.
Itâs important to know not just what weâre good at but also what weâre not good at. There are many, many careers which are not dependent on strong math skills but do incredibly important work. There are also very, very good colleges which do not require the highest level of math skills.
Having said all that, I want to mention as well that there is research which shows that math learning is dependent on brain development. By this, I do not mean intelligence. Everyoneâs brains develop and differentiate at different rates. Just as children grow to their full height at different rates, or enter puberty at different ages, etc. Knowing this, there are some who believe that we are not doing students any favors by introducing complex math concepts as early as we do these days. The result is that we create students who believe theyâre not good in math when the real problem was that it was introduced too early.. Had we waited, some of those students might become very good in math.
Personally, Iâd have her do 4 years of math, but donât push honors.
When D22 wanted to drop language after 2 years, we pulled up schools we thought she would likely be applying to and looked to see what their requirements were (and often it differeed by major).
The standard level math sequence does not seem to be too early, but there seems to be a lot of competitive parental pushing to accelerate their kidsâ math track, presumably for college admission purposes.
A generation or few ago, good-in-math students (maybe 10%) got on the +1 track, with perhaps someone on the +2 track every few years. Now, it seems like the +2 track is seen as âregularâ, and the +1 track is seen as âbehindâ by many parents and students aiming for more selective colleges.
Many colleges have ârecommendationsâ rather than ârequirementsâ for high school course work for admission. However, the common assumption here is that ârecommendedâ is ârequiredâ for applicants from well resourced high schools who do not present extremely unusual situations.
Look at what your state schools require. Think about whether you think sheâd be happy there. (No need to involve her and stress her out just yet) and consider whether AP Stats is the right choice for next year. My D22 took 4 years of math, but senior year was Common Core Math 4 (personal finance) not AP Stats although it was offered. She just did the Common Core sequence of Math I, 2, 3, 4. Many of her peers were doing Pre-Calc in junior year and Calc in Senior year. She got in every college she applied to with Math 4. Did she apply to Harvard? No. But she had plenty of options.
Iâm not sure if itâs true, but when some of our local schools were looking to switch to the Math 1, 2, 3, 4 sequence, they said that (some) colleges were preferring it becuase of the spiraling and cross displinary curriculum. For a ânon-mathyâ kid, it is way more important for them to feel âmathyâ and understand how all of the parts fit together rather than teaching each distinct subject. Itâs better for a kid to work on algebra for 4 years while also learning trig, calc and stats, than to move onto other subjects without a solid foundation.
My daughter was, to put it kindly, not good at math. She got thru hs with tutors and without Aâs. Getting into college wasnât an issue but she originally needed two fairly advanced classes to get out of college (required by the Arts and Science college, including theater (original major), art history (2nd major) and history (final major). In her case, delay in not taking the required math classes immediately freshman year paid off as the college changed the core requirements after her freshman year and she could opt for the new requirements, which was only 1 math class. That still would have been a bear, but she took it at a local college as a summer course and she went to every class, she befriended the professor, and she got an A. Also had her sister, an engineer, about that summer to be her tutor. Is she good at math now? No, but she can get by in life.
She got lucky again as when she applied for a grad degree, it was during covid and the program waived the GRE because it was almost impossible to schedule a test sitting. Sheâd already bought the study guide and was agonizing over the math section when the school told her not to worry about it. Many prayers of gratitude were said. She now has a BA and an MA in history.
That said, Iâd look at a few schools sheâs thinking of and see what the requirements are for the major and for the college (core curriculum, special requirements), and whether they are required to be accepted or to graduate. And remember things can change. They changed in my daughterâs favor but it could go the other way too.
As a student who took (and did well in) AP Stats last year, I would like to point out that it is not necessarily an easy class. The type of math you will be doing is very differentâwe solved for x about three times all year, and there is lots more writing involvedâso some of my friends who did middlingly in algebra did excellently in stats, but there are nevertheless some parts that are difficult. The average grade in my class was a C or so in second semester.
The first semester is easy, involving as it does only vocabulary and basic ideas that your daughter has presumably already encountered, like slopes and histograms. (Strategically, I suppose that a class that is easy first semester and hard second semester is a good one to take based on the admissions timeline.) But, starting with the unit on probability, and through the second half, which is mostly given to inferential statistics, things become unfamiliar and fairly conceptual. Even a lot of that, I will admit, can be done with some basic explanatory templates and be brute-forced without genuine understanding, and there is little space for creativity and insight (probability is perhaps an exception); a lot of it becomes a question of checking conditions and doing the same thing over and over slightly differently.
The class has got a different feel, overall. I would have her ask people whoâve already taken the class what they think about it.
I think some of this depends on what type of institution she wants to attend and whether she plans to take the SAT or ACT.
Neither of my kids took Calculus. But I wanted them to take Math each year.
Both took Algebra 1, Geometry, Algebra 2, Trig and Precalc. S23 took AP Stats Senior Year and entered UMASS Amherst as an Animal Science Major. S25 refused Stats and took DE Personal Finance, but still had choices for his intended liberal arts degree.
If she plans to be a humanities major and is not looking for super selective, sheâll be ok. Check graduation requirements. At a minimum, I would consider continuing with regular level math through jr year, especially if she intends to take SAT or ACT. Consider Stats or something like personal finance if offered.
Is it possible for your daughter to take regular Pre-Calculus in junior year and then AP Stats in senior year? I know it sounds difficult, but this would open up more college opporunities down the road. Most selective colleges expect student to complete at least âPre-Calculusâ. I am not sure where you are from. I know a student in CA who also not enjoying Math classes in HS. But she completed Pre-Calculus and then took AP Stats last year. She got accepted to UCs including UCSD, UCI, UCSB, UCD and top CSUs such as CPSLO, SDSU. No Calculus is OK, but at least complete Pre-Calculus. Good Luck.
I havenât checked the others, but while itâs technically true that Carleton doesnât require 4 years of math, they do appear to recommend it.
This page has two lists, one showing what the âstrongest candidatesâ have taken and one showing what applicants âshould have at leastâ taken.
Under the first, they show four years. Under the second, three years âincluding precalculus.â So an applicant who has taken only Geometry, Algebra II, and AP Stats would appear to be at a disadvantage there.
In my experience, the norm seems to be to recommend rather than require specific preparation at the high school level. Even MIT frames their high school preparation list as ârecommendations.â
I like the idea suggested by @chuckml97 to take a non-honors precalculus course in 11th grade followed by AP Stats in 12th grade. Statistics is pretty different from other types of math she may have seen, and some are surprised at how applicable to everyday life it is, which can make it feel less abstract. It also tends to be required at some point for those interested in the Social Sciences, if thatâs on the table.
Perhaps your daughter might have more luck with a different tutor?
Given the importance of math and how much impact this decision could have, it might be worth reaching out to Admissions at a school you think she might hope to apply to eventually and asking them your questions directly, after reading over whatever they say on their site.
why are some guidance counselors so unhelpful? 