Is this legal?

Parent Cafe
1

<p>I’m not going to be surprised at all if it’s not, but I’m wondering if there is any legal recourse to what my father’s company is currently doing.</p>

<p>My dad works for a grocery chain as an assistant manager. Over the past month or so, they’ve begun to fire (read, fire, not let go) full time employees, many with 10+ years at the company. In each case, they’ve been citing incidents (some of very dubious merit) that occurred prior (but still on record) as cause for firing. For instance, one was supposedly fired for a “violent outburst” which consisted of throwing a couple of empty cardboard boxes, and supposedly striking a customer, which by the account of all coworkers, never happened. </p>

<p>So far the company has been successfully denying unemployment benefits to all of these individuals on the basis of these incidents on record, even though their firing was in no way contingent on their occurring. A couple have tried to fight it but ultimately lost and had to return any money collected. </p>

<p>I know there’s probably no recourse for this but it frustrates me that they’re firing qualified, dedicated workers from decent paying jobs. The store is making good money but they want to replace all of the full timers with part timers so they can pay them less and deny them benefits. My dad is the last full-time non-managerial employee outside of the meat department. They fired several of these employees the week before Christmas.</p>

<p>The two that were fired today, as I hear more about this, supposedly were fired because “the store was dirty,” and they were the maintenance crew. One of the men fired today had never been written up during his entire time there and they are being denied their earned vacation and unemployment just like the rest. </p>

<p>I’m sorry that this is disorganized, but I am currently writing this as I hear more and more about the situation, so I’m getting updates as I type. With all of these sudden firings at the same time, is there any way to help these people get their benefits, and to protect my father when the inevitable comes? My dad does have a couple incidents on his record (though nothing serious, just a couple instances of being late, and something bogus that was due to a previous manager trying to cover his own backside by throwing my dad under the bus). </p>

<p>At the very least, is there any sort of bad business watchdog or group that we can report this to? This is filthy wrong and dirty in my eyes. The owners of this company have a private island and they’re throwing dedicated employees to the curb for no real reason without wanting to give them a dime. :(</p>

2

<p>I assume no union is in place? Accrued vacation time is normally paid upon severance, so they may be able to take that up with the state labor department. They also have nothing to lose by consulting an employment attorney and appealing their denial of benefits. Then, there’s always the court of public opinion…retailers are generally skittish of scaring customers away and hate bad press of any kind!</p>

3

<p>If you haven’t already, you may want to run a search on “at-will” employment. The gist of it is that the employer may terminate an employee for any or no reason, as long as the employer doesn’t discriminate (age, sex, race, etc.) or fire someone for refusing to do an illegal act or fail to follow its own written policy for terminations. Most, but not all, states permit this.</p>

<p>As for the owners, the “no real reason” to which you refer may be that profits are down and they’re attempting to reduce expenses. The alternative may be to raise prices, which could cause even greater customer backlash than the negative press. The marketplace doesn’t always reward ethical behavior, much less sentiment. </p>

<p>If this sounds harsh, I’m sorry. It’s not that I am unsympathetic. I recall very clearly how angry I felt when my dad was terminated at age 60. He was an honorable man who refused to look the other way, and it cost him his job. What dh and I took away from that event is that company loyalty is generally one-way. We believe in giving a fair day’s work for a fair day’s pay, but always remember that no company has our best interests at heart. </p>

<p>I hope things work out for your father.</p>

4

<p>I’m thinking boycott…</p>

5

<p>

Yes, but they are being fired “for cause”, even though it sounds like the causes are exaggerated or trumped up. That is how they are getting the state to deny the employees unemployment benefits. IIRC it saves the store money if the employees can’t collect, because the store’s unemployment premium is based in part on how many ex-employees are collecting.</p>

<p>If they are not being paid their accrued vacation, the store is in deep trouble legally, and the state will come down on them like a ton of bricks. It is essentially theft, all it will take is a complaint.</p>

<p>Contact the local TV stations, sometimes they like stories like this.</p>

6

<p>I think the way it works is that after an employee is fired, the employee files a claim for benefits, then the company is notified that an ex-employee is filing for benefits, and the company can contest it. If the state agrees they were fired for cause, the claim is denied.</p>

<p>The ex-employee can appeal, and then I imagine some kind of hearing happens.</p>

<p>A month seems pretty fast to get through the hearing stage, that’s pretty efficient for a state agency. It’s probably been more than a month.</p>

7

<p>If this has happened repeatedly, as you say, and they’ve gotten rid of ALL of the full-time non-managerial staff except your dad, I think someone needs to call your State Attorney General’s office. It’s perfectly reasonable to fire the occasional employee for cause. But the entire staff? Every single person that worked for them, some for decades or more, are suddenly incompetent or breaking company rules?</p>

<p>I smell a rat here, and based on the pattern I wouldn’t be surprised if a state agency agreed. </p>

<p>Every time a company lays people off, their costs for unemployment go up. I think your dad’s bosses are trying to avoid that, and I think it’s illegal. Call the state attorney general’s office.</p>

8

<p>The part about successfully denying unemployment benefits simply doesn’t make sense to me. It’s hard to fire someone without having to pay unemployment. You have to document what happened, and they do investigate the claims.</p>

9

<p>In the past I have fired people for documented cause and still had them get unemployment benes, they must have a really good attorney who is following a certain proscribed path to get them successfully through all that</p>

10

<p>Okay, I’ll try to address everything, and I have to correct some errors in my understanding, which are reflected in the original post. I’m speaking to my dad to clarify:</p>

<p>-According to my dad, his company’s policy on vacation time is that it’s use it or lose it. They do not pay for unused vacation, and they consider it a “bonus” they they provide to employees. </p>

<p>-The previous employees that my dad references having been denied unemployment after fighting the company were fired longer ago than the most recent rash of terminations. The most recent was about 8 months ago and he said that the “at cause” portion of his termination was questionable.</p>

<p>-So far, all of the employees fired have been cited as “for cause” terminations and denied any vacation or unemployment benefits. </p>

<p>-The total number of employees fired in the past month have been 3 full-timers and 4 part-timers. Additionally, another employee was terminated after a severe motor cycle accident outside of work because he was not yet “100%” and they did not want liability for any reinjury. He’s not collecting unemployment because he is currently on disability. </p>

<p>-One of the “for cause” fired employees was employee of the month before.</p>

<p>-Another 2 full-time employees have been fired “for cause” in the past 7 months.</p>

<p>-My dad’s record in the past YEAR has been completely clean. They currently have nothing on file that they could terminate him for. However, as with the case of today’s layoffs, they will claim that a higher up in the company saw the state of the store and was “furious,” despite accounts from employees that accompanied said higher up and said his reactions were pretty tame and involved pointing out a few areas for improvement. The basis of today’s two terminations were that the floor was dirty and it was the job of the maintenance staff to keep them clean. </p>

<p>-My dad is the only full-time employee left outside of the meat room. There are 4 in the meat room, which is the main draw of the store, then produce, which is where my dad works. </p>

<p>Overall: I may have somewhat misrepresented the numerical scope of the terminations because I didn’t realize that the store didn’t have as many full-time employees as I thought. I guess this has been an ongoing trend in the past year or so of the store’s operation but has intensified over the past few weeks. I was in any way intending to exaggerate the situation, and I apologize if any of my gaps in knowledge led me to do so. </p>

<p>The people that have been fired are going to dispute and get unemployment, but apparently people appealing this at his company in the past have not been successful. My dad doesn’t know why. </p>

<p>Silpat: Yes, there is an at-will clause in whatever my dad signed. I know how that works. It’s just that they’re saying these are “for cause” terminations and denying unemployment benefits and vacation on that basis. </p>

<p>Thanks everyone else for the suggestions. My dad is intending to continue to talk to his former coworkers and see how their appeals go and such. As for him, he’s focusing on staying out of trouble and not giving them any excuse to can him. He is currently on vacation and is very worried that they will fire him when he comes back, but thankfully his manager really has his back and is trying to protect him. We will pass on any suggestions to other coworkers who have already lost their jobs, and will fight tooth and nail if my father loses his, because I can say wholeheartedly that they have no reason to fire him “for cause.” </p>

<p>I would really appreciate any further input now that I have better clarified the situation. I am not looking to advise my dad to act rashly or to do anything that could threaten his livelihood, but I have long since come to the conclusion that the store he works for has very questionable practices, both ethically and practically.</p>

11

<p>In every company I’ve ever worked for (and there have been plenty), vacation time accrues at every pay period. You divide how many days per year you get by how many pay periods there are in a year, and that many hours are accrued to your account.</p>

<p>A company can limit how much you can accrue (my current company is 240 hours, as an example), but once you accrue the hours, the company is legally required to pay you for them when you leave. You own it.</p>

<p>I’ve heard of companies that credit all your vacation on January 1. If you leave on Jan 2., you get it all. Don’t know if anyone still does it this way though. Computerized payrolls make it too easy to do it every pay period.</p>

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<p>notrichenough, I agree with what you said - I had the same experience. Do you think this could be a case of different set of labor regulations and laws applying to a business with fewer than N employees? </p>

<p>It sound to me that all terminated employees need to collectively chip in and consult an attorney who specializes in these issues. If what Julie is saying is true (and I have no reasons not to believe her), they can put this unethical employer out of business!</p>

13

<p>I doubt they can put the employer out of business, but they can get heavily fined and if bad enough, face criminal charges.</p>

<p>I know a few people who have had issues with receiving what they are owed. They filed a complaint with the Department of Labor, who I guess then opens up an investigation. The cases were speedily resolved and the employees got their money. Apparently a company would much rather pay up than have the gov’t digging around in their business looking for problems.</p>

<p>As for different labor laws - I dunno. Every company I ever worked for had employee manuals and benefits guides and what-not that explained exactly what you get. Maybe OP’s dad needs to track down these documents.</p>

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<p>Not every state is an “at will” state, but if yours is one an employer can fire an employee without any reason.</p>

<p>While it seems heartless, these are tough times and employers, big and small, are having to cut costs. It’s hard for small chains to compete with Walmart without employing the same strategies they do such as part- time, no benefit, low wage employees.</p>

<p>If there is no union, and you’ve looked at state laws, the unfortunate probability is that these former employees don’t have a leg to stand on to get anything but the vacation pay. They should try a few contingency attorneys, they’ll quickly find out if try have a case by talking to them.</p>

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<p>2college2college: This is something I’m trying to understand as part of employment law, not only in this case but for future reference.</p>

<p>My understanding of at-will employment is that a company has the right to terminate you as an employee at any time without any reason. However, I thought that in order to deny unemployment benefits, that a company had to have a reason to fire you. In the case of my mom, at one point she was let go from her job due to downsizing. Her entire shift was laid off, but she was able to collect unemployment. </p>

<p>Do businesses need a reason to deny unemployment, or can they do it just because they feel like it? That’s what I’m trying to understand.</p>

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<p>Please…don’t get legal advice from this board. It’s stupid to do so. </p>

<p>If there’s no union, it’s a matter of state law. So, you need to talk to an attorney in the state where your father works. Whether you can collect unemployment and who has the burden to prove a firing was/was not for cause depends upon state law. What else can be done also depends on state law. </p>

<p>I’m not saying he should rush out and hire an attorney now. You might try googling unemployment compensation and the name of your state. Look for an official government website specific to the state in which your dad works which will explain who does /does not get unemployment in your state, who has the burden of proving that a firing was for cause, and how long a former employee has to appeal a denial. Then, if your dad is actually terminated, you’ll have a better idea of whether it makes sense to see an attorney and what his options are.</p>

<p>The laws in this area are specific to particular states, so look for the website of the agency which hears these cases in the state where your dad works.</p>

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<p>jonri - I’m doing that as we speak but I’m still confused by the law. Here’s what the page says: </p>

<p>

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<p>I’m still a little confused here. Does the “fired for any other reason” mean legitimate reasons, or is “because we felt like it” a reason in this case?</p>

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<p>IT’S A MATTER OF STATE LAW. I can not give you advice as to what a statute means in a state where I am not licensed to practice law. I also can’t give it to you in the state in which I am licensed to practice because you are not my client.</p>

<p>I only answered your question for the purpose of suggesting that your dad consult an attorney in his state if and when he is terminated.</p>

19

<p>I think it’s pretty clear what happened here. The company did cite a cause for the firings to avoid their unemployment premiums rising. This is something an employee can contest. You can Google how to do this in your state.</p>

20

<p>In addition to the monetary loss involved with not being able to collect unemployment, I would be concerned about the effect on future employment of being fired “for cause,” as opposed to being laid off. People are often asked whether they have ever been fired for cause on employment applications.</p>

<p>This tactic seems particularly unethical and mean-minded to me.</p>