is this logic sound regarding ED and financial aid? sanity check, please

Applying to College
1

<p>My daughter, rising senior, has a list of 12-14 schools.</p>

<p>We are fairly low income, with EFC likely to be around $4,800 (low-end Pell recipient). My husband owns a small business, and he is an employee of the business.</p>

<p>My daughter is going to major in theatre. She suspected that Kenyon would be a good fit based on research, talking to people, mailings, etc. It is a 100% need met school, and it also has a stellar theatre/liberal arts curriculum. It is also within driving distance for us (which was criteria we use).</p>

<p>We visited last week. It is now definitely her first choice, after the tour, the visit and talking to theatre students.</p>

<p>With these factors in mind, is it a good idea for her to apply Early Decision? </p>

<p>I think Kenyon is a clear frontrunner and I cannot imagine her finding a better fit. The money will tell the tale. Her ACT is middling and her UW GPA is 3.5/ Weighted 4.2. Great theatre resume, but theatre is about all she does (year 'round). In plugging her data in on chance-type sites and looking at the common data set, I realize she is in the low section of probable acceptances…but not really out of bounds. It is our logic that she stands a better chance of acceptance in ED.</p>

<p>If she is accepted but they don’t meet need, then she can move on to other applications, correct? </p>

<p>Please find the flaw in this scenario, if there is one…or tell me and help me weigh the downside, if you feel there is one. Thanks in advance for your help or advice!</p>

<p>p.s. I know I have asked this in other ways in a couple of other threads, but the scenario has changed since we visited…more the frontrunner now.</p>

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<p>Yes, you have a good grasp of the situation. A warning though, financial aid numbers can come out weird when a parent owns a small business. She should submit some other apps while waiting to hear from Kenyon (especially if any of the schools on her list have rolling admissions) and in the event that she does get in ED she should not withdraw her other applications until she sees the financial aid package.</p>

3

<p>Here’s the flaw: let’s say Kenyon’s financial aid package (which will “meet need” according to their definition, not yours, and as noted, that’s particularly dicey in the case of those who own their own businesses) is only fair and would require some uncomfortable stretching and sacrifice on your part, as well as the maximum amount of federal loans by your daughter (I’m assuming Kenyon will meet need with loans as well as grants). Do you take it? Maybe another college will calculate your need in a way that is more beneficial or otherwise come up with a better package, maybe not, but you’ll have no way of knowing. That’s why you’ll often hear that in cases where financial aid is critical, it’s best to apply RD everywhere and compare packages.</p>

4

<p>MommaJ has found the flaw… no ability to compare packages (or even to ask a college to review their FA offer based on an award you received from a comparable college – sometimes that results in improved aid, too). It sounds like FA is very important to you.</p>

<p>Can she study and take the ACT again to improve her chances in the ED pool? Also, if she does apply to Kenyon RD, be sure she gets her app in by the scholarship deadline, which is earlier than the RD deadline (I think it may have been 12/15 last year).</p>

5

<p>If all you had was employment income, with no significant assets or surprises, and you ran the net price calculator and were comfortable with the results, then maybe it might be worth taking the risk.</p>

<p>But your husband’s business throws a wild card into the deck . . . you just have no way of knowing how Kenyon is going to treat his income, expenses and assets. And, as noted above, the problem isn’t that you might get an absolutely unaffordable offer . . . it’s that you might get an offer that’s almost affordable, but not really, but your daughter will be heartbroken if you don’t accept it, but if you do, you’ll have to borrow, which you really can’t afford to do . . . well, you get the picture.</p>

<p>The one thing you can do is contact Kenyon’s financial aid office and see if they’ll give you an “early read” on your financial aid eligibility. It wouldn’t be a guarantee, but they might be able to give you an approximation of what kind of aid your daughter would be eligible for. It can’t hurt to ask.</p>

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<p>I wonder if meeting need is a recent change for Kenyon? I saw those words on their FA site [Costs</a> & Financial Aid  ·  Kenyon College](<a href=“http://www.kenyon.edu/admissions-aid/financial-aid/]Costs”>Financial Aid & Scholarships | Kenyon College) but it doesn’t match the data in their Common Data Set. Last year they met 96% of need for freshmen. [Common</a> Data Sets  ·  Kenyon College](<a href=“http://www.kenyon.edu/directories/offices-services/institutional-research/common-data-sets/]Common”>Common Data Sets | Kenyon College)</p>

<p>I agree with the points made above about small business owners being at a disadvantage for the FA calcs and the inability to compare offers.</p>

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<p>I think that you have the basic facts, except for one thing. </p>

<p>Applying ED will greatly increase the chances that she will be accepted. That’s a huge upside. </p>

<p>The downside is that you don’t get to compare offers. They will give you a package and if you can afford it, then you must withdraw other applications and she must attend Kenyon. If you can’t afford it, and they won’t negotiate, she cannot attend Kenyon. </p>

<p>There is risk either way. Only you can decide how to balance the two risks:
-that should wouldn’t get in RD
-that you might have had a less expensive option</p>

8

<p>Thanks so much for weighing in, everyone.</p>

<p>My daughter is a major realist. She knows if it was out of reach, we couldn’t stretch, and she would move on…she feels she could be happy in several different types of environments, and she wouldn’t dwell on not being able to go. That said, I could see her completely fitting into the environment at Kenyon.</p>

<p>In terms of not being able to compare packages … if she was accepted into Kenyon and what they offered was within reach, then we wouldn’t care at all about the ability to compare packages, because we would have had our need met by the first choice. I’ve read this statement so much, but in this case, still feel like I’m missing something.</p>

<p>But yes, if she was admitted, and the what they offered was out of reach, it would be bummer. but if we couldn’t do it, we wouldn’t, and we wouldn’t dwell.</p>

<p>Also, yes, the major upside is that ED definitely improves chances of acceptance - the whole big reason we would do it. She will try to raise her ACT the next 2 times it’s offered.</p>

<p>Yeah, financial aid is the biggest concern.</p>

<p>Thanks again, everyone.</p>

9

<p>

Well, I guess it depends on where you want to draw the line. If you are certain that no other school is as suitable as Kenyon and have an absolutely firm “need” number in mind such that one dollar less won’t do the trick, yes, the decision will be easy. But suppose the financial aid package is less than ideal, but still doable, say if you keep that clunker car going for four more years instead of replacing it as planned or ditch those summer vacations. Or what of the possibility that a school that is as good a fit as Kenyon (and I guarantee there are others out there) would offer a package rich enough to allow you use funds otherwise committed to college for some family vacations or to boost the retirement fund? Are you really willing to forego that possibility based on the notion that Kenyon is such a perfect option that your D’s chances for acceptance must be maximized with an ED application?? I guess I’m a real skeptic when it comes to declaring a particular school to be “the one”, because I don’t believe anyone can do more make an educated guess at whether a school will be right for them and because I believe there are multiple colleges where any particular student will, as the saying goes, bloom where they are planted. But in the end, it’s your money and your decision.</p>

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<p>One more point about where you draw the line between within reach or not, Kenyon includes loans in their FA packages. That’s another decision you will have to make, would another school offer more grants and less loans? You’ll never know with ED, and with a kid planning on going into theater, I’d assume that would be an important factor.</p>

<p>IMO, applying ED is for two polar opposite financial situations:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Fully willing and able to pay full fare.</p></li>
<li><p>Clearly fitting into the definition of a ‘low income’ initiative for a college that meets full need with grants and WS only, no loans. This would include having an extremely straighforward financial situation without complications like a small business.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>IMO ED is not a wise choice for a self-defined “fairly low income family.”</p>

11

<p>IMO applying ED is for the situation when there is a clear first choice that you could lose by not applying ED.</p>

<p>Rather than speculating, you can certainly decide after you see the package (with/without loans, whatever), whether it’s something you can handle. If it isn’t it’s also something you can appeal. </p>

<p>We’re talking to the competent adult here who is perfectly capable of figuring out whether or not the package is acceptable to him/her.</p>

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<p>Some good points made in these last 3 posts. I appreciate the time you took to point them out. What we’d hoped to gain of course, was a better chance of admittance…and the fact that they meet need. So the loans, the theatre major, and the need to compare packages are all points to ponder.</p>

<p>Yes ClassicRockerDad, supposedly, I am the capable adult :slight_smile: </p>

<p>On this board it seems that if you’re eligible for any Pell at all, you’re pretty low income. I realize that is all relative.</p>

<p>Many schools on her list are CTCL. She may or may not get affordable offers. She has a couple of doable safeties (measured both by stats and financially). She would likely “bloom if she was planted” at either of these safeties, and probably several of the others at which she’ll apply. We are not hard to please, necessarily…but Kenyon was just a very clear wonderful fit, and it would be nice if she was accepted and we could afford it.</p>

<p>But I definitely get all of your points. Thanks again.</p>

13

<p>

</p>

<p>Nonsense! :slight_smile: You’re the mother of a child who really wants to attend this school, and you will do anything you can to make that possible . . . and, at some point in the process (usually right after the letter of acceptance arrives!), logic is going to give way to emotion.</p>

<p>As noted above, the problem is not the offer that’s clearly unaffordable . . . that’s an easy decision. It’s the borderline offer - the one that’s manageable, but not without some personal hardship (for you and your husband, or for your daughter).</p>

<p>And I am among those who are skeptical of the “much greater chance of acceptance” so commonly associated with ED application. Yes, a higher percentage of ED applicants are accepted. But those accepted applicants include:</p>

<p>(1) Kids with stellar app’s who KNEW they wanted to attend School X (but who would have been just as sure of being admitted if they’d applied RD)</p>

<p>(2) Legacies (whose chances of admission were greatly increased by their legacy status)</p>

<p>(3) Recruited athletes</p>

<p>So, yes, a higher percentage of ED applicants are admitted . . . but there’s a reason for that. There may be a slight bump in the chances of the average, “unhooked” applicant who applies ED, but it isn’t as great as the statistics would have you think.</p>

<p>Entomom’s advice above is spot on, and I’d second her concerns about a theatre major taking out loans. If, at some point, your daughter is lucky enough to be offered a job she’s passionate about, but that pays very little, and she has to choose between that and a solid, reliable paycheck . . . those loans hanging over her head could end up costing her more than money.</p>

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<p>Negative fear mongering, totally wrong, and quite patronizing. </p>

<p>The reason for the higher rate of acceptance is that it is difficult financially for a LAC to have a large variance in their yield. They need to fill up a large fraction of their class with sure things. Many LACs will make an extra effort to accept students who demonstrate via ED that they are the student’s first choice. They will tell you that, and the data bears it out. </p>

<p>Control your emotions and use your brain.</p>

15

<p>Data from Kenyon CDS to backup my previous post</p>

<p>For Fall 2012 Entering Class:
Number of early decision applications received by your institution 390
Number of applicants admitted under early decision plan 208 (201 enrolled)</p>

<p>Total
Applicants: 3947 (1463 M, 2484 W)
Admitted: 1421 (605 M, 816 W)
Enrolled: 446 (204 M, 242 W)</p>

<p>Let’s examine further
ED: 53% admitted
RD: roughly 32% admitted (assumes all ED applicants who were not admitted were deferred to RD) - 32% comes from (3947-208)/(1421-208), </p>

<p>Overall stats for women: 32% admitted. Presumably higher for ED.</p>

<p>97% of accepted ED students found the financial offer satisfactory
45% of the class was filled from ED</p>

<p>Also from CDS, level of applicants interest is VERY IMPORTANT</p>

<p>Makes a pretty compelling case for ED don’t you think? </p>

<p>Roughly 20% of the students who applied ED wouldn’t have gotten in RD.
These students would have had a financial offer from their first choice to compare. </p>

<p>Which is a bigger risk: 20% that you didn’t get into your first choice or 3% that you won’t get a satisfactory financial offer</p>

16

<p>

CRD, I’m wondering how you calculated this? Does your data show the acceptance rate curves for scores, etc?</p>

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<p>Call some schools, CMU, I know will do this–not all schools will, and ask for a preread like NOW on your financial situation. Tell the schools your D wants to apply ED but due to the fact that you have a family business you are concerned as to how they will calculate need. You will likely have to fill out an estimate PROFILE and, you can then get an estimate of what they give you. CMU meets full need for ED accepted students, but not for all students applying RD. But most importantly you can see how these schools will assess your business, and cross off those that will not give you enough aid due to how the schools do those numbers. </p>

<p>Frankly, even then, with money an issue, I 'd not apply ED. Even if you can squeeze out what the awards are, you have no idea what other possibilities are out there. If you are looking at a cost of $10K,say from school A and a cost of $2k from school B, it’s a whole other emotional thing than when you are just seeing School A’s cost with momentum and your daughter on her knees chanting prayers that you say yes, so she doesn’t have to start at ground zero with the other applications. The momentum is pretty strong to try to make an ED offer work even when it’s not a smart financial decision to do so, and that you have no other alternatives adds to the pressure.</p>

<p>Your DD would get a very nice package from Albright College in PA, as they meet FAFSA EFC for all but discretionary (books, travel, supplies, sundries). PROFILE is usally not kind to small business owneres. Also, schools will use subsidized loans and work study in a package which means your student is limited or excluded from using those Direct Loans or working part time to pay towards the EFC. If you can truly take the emotion and momentum impact out of the picture, it’s one thing, or if it is truly worth it to scrimp and borrow for a particular program, then, yes, ED can get the way to go.</p>

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<p>Another CC’er who’s skeptical of the ED “boost”:</p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-admissions/1538211-does-applying-early-action-have-same-boost-early-decision.html#post16252052[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-admissions/1538211-does-applying-early-action-have-same-boost-early-decision.html#post16252052&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;