Is UVA really that hard to get into?

mam1959 · July 17, 2006, 1:17pm

I have a jaundiced and somewhat chaotic (but don’t take this as necessarily negative) view of UVa - it must be hard to get into because the stats do indicate it - but at my one daughter’s high school - a regular public school in No. Va. - about 40 are going - good (but not necessarily great) students - but only about 6 of them are male. One of them is a football player - high level Div. 1 recruit - who frankly shouldn’t be going to any college at all (he may not ultimately enroll based on summer results) - and for the life of me even if football thrown in the mix cannot believe that Uva has accepted this recruit. It really speaks poorly about the University’s commitment to the appropriate role for sports at the school (and I am a former Div. 1 scholarship athlete who likes sports). And the shortage of guys going to Uva is troubling - obviously this one high school’s profile is anecdotal - and indeed 80% of the Honor Society at this school (or more) was female - but still - Uva - at least from one daughter’s experience (she is going to another highly ranked school on an academic scholarship and try as we might could not get her to apply to UVa) spins off some fairly strange admit stats. This year, Uva was a place for studious, mature women…but the best of the best (admittedly a handful) chose to go elsewhere.

My other daughter goes to TJ…85% of the class can obtain virtual automatic admits to UVa. Not a bad deal - TJ students are by and large really well prepared - but not sure what this does for Uva - other than put 150 well prepared students per year from one single high school into the freshman class. This daughter won’t go to UVa either, which is galling because it is likely (along with Michigan and Cal-B) the best value going from an in-state perspective. When we moved to Virginia over 20 years ago, the quality of colleges, which so far outstrip Maryland it is not funny, were a big factor.

Lost_In_Space · July 17, 2006, 3:43pm

I can top this. I heard of a kid who was wait listed at UVA who is heading to Harvard in Sept.! Another kid who had good SATs and ACTs and even a perfect 800 on one test, legacy, with college work at Harvard and G’Town who was not accepted as a transfer. So, the only way this kid can go to UVA, a long-time first choice, is to take classes at the CC! If this app. can pull A’s at Harvard and G’town, why take classes at a CC to prove anything to UVA? If we were stocks then most of the GCs and the admissions people would all be in jail. Admissions is so rigged. We should strike! Class of 2007! Do not send in any apps to a top 40 school! Let’s take back the application process!

sv3a · July 17, 2006, 4:04pm

UVA has one of the best sports programs in the nation. I think they know what they’re doing in terms of sports.

UVA is still about 55-57/43-45 female:male, which is a reasonable ratio at this level of academic achievement.

namtrag · July 17, 2006, 4:38pm

My son got in ED to the engineering school with a 2120 SAT (1400 old SAT), mid 600’s on 2 SAT II’s, 4.3 weighted, 3.75 or so unweighted, and his only real EC was golf team for 4 years. He also wrote his essay at 11:30 pm the night before the deadline.

He went to Western Branch HS in Chesapeake, VA, and I believe only a handful of the 475 grads is going to UVA (about 6-7).

So, I think it’s not too hard to get into if you are an in-state boy. Plus we were told by a UVA senior who attended my son’s high school that the engineering school is much easier to get into than the A&S school, just because of the sheer number of applicants to the A&S school. Don’t know if that’s true or not???

wmalum2006 · July 17, 2006, 8:03pm

I’m from Stone Bridge and I got flat out rejected with a 1420 (2100 with the Writing SAT II), and a 3.5. So yes, it’s hard to get into, but grades are what will get you there in my opinion.

mam1959 · July 18, 2006, 12:05am

sv3a - UVa has one of the best sports programs in the nation? Maybe top 50. But one of the best?

And I don’t mean to be immodest, but unlike most CC posters, I went to school (a top 10 USNWR school) on an athletic scholarship and was an All American in high school and college - and recruited by UVa as well! I know a lot about Div. 1 athletics - and know enough about UVa (my brother, and All American athlete as well, was a professor there) to know that there is no way, and I mean no way, that this particular kid should be going to college, much less UVa. And I can tell you that being on scholarship at a Div. 1 is a full time job - which means in the ideal that athletes should have better, no wholly fallible, credentials to make a positive impact on the academics of the university. And while you may wish to blithely dismiss situations with they must know what they are doing, it speaks volumes to me about academic priorities. This kid (and from what I understand a cadre like him on the football team) must be warehoused somewhere to stay eligible - something that must turn the UVa athletic department inside out because unlike a LSU or Florida State, there is no recreation or family studies major. The amount of effort to keep these guys eligible (and the delusional games the university must play to justify their professional athlete existence) is significant. It just has to be dehabilitating to the academic mission. Please don’t take this as picking on UVa - many other schools do the same - but this guy as well as a few others are so at variance from typical student it is astounding. Oh, by the way, we are not talking here about a 100 points or so off from the average SAT. Think more like 500 to 550 points. And think 1.8 or so high school gpa - in marginal courses, perhaps brought up to 2.0 through summer classes. And this with an army of football coaches guiding him through. Uva pulls stunts like this at their peril - lets be open - they have a competitive football team - but they are never going to be University of Texas - so it would be a better course, in my mind, to have football be less corrupting. In any event, don’t ask me - the students aware of this situation will give you an earful as to how appalling they find it.

cavalier302 · July 18, 2006, 12:18am

mam, Virginia is no Stanford or Texas when it comes to sports (thank god!!), but its athletic program consistently ranks in the top 20 or so in the nation. However, the two sports people really care about - football and men’s basketball - are relatively mediocre.

I completely agree with you about athletes. It is an abomination that the University is truckin’ these dudes in (and giving them full rides!), despite the fact that they are absolute idiots. Yes, there are many capable athletes, but there are enough dunderheads that I’m almost shamed to think about it. Did you know that seven football players who committed to play at Virginia did not qualify academically? Pathetic. The young man you’ve described will fit in just fine with some of the barely-literate hulks that we’ve got. I could go on and give you specific examples of things I’ve seen…but I think you get the picture.

jags861 · July 18, 2006, 12:29am

mam,

just because uva isn’t national football or basketball champions doesn’t mean it doesn’t have a great sports program. even if its top 50, although im sure that number was just pulled out of thin air, thats still 50 out of like 1000 4 year colleges. I think that puts it as one of the best.

uva perennially has a great soccer, lacrosse, swimming, and tennis teams. also their baseball has always been pretty strong - and this year has done extremely well. Also, it should be noted that uva is one of the few, if not only schools to have been ranked in the top 25 in football, basketball, and academics at the same time over hte past few years (although not last year).

Also, while I do agree with you that UVa shouldn’t be wasting spaces for qualified students on the football team (because it still sucks) - the fact is regardless of whether or not UVa is a top 10 football team or a top 30 football team, it makes the school buttloads of money - same with basketball. How do you think the school put up that sweet $130 million arena.

The fact is this - EVERY d.1 school makes exceptions for student athletes. Even the Ivy league schools which bogusly claim “we don’t give scholarships to athletes (but instead just somehow find incredibly generous grant money to give to atheletes we want badly enough)” recruits atheletes.

elgordo · July 18, 2006, 7:34am

Admission of marginally qualified and unqualified athletes really hurts recruitment of students at the very top of the academic range. They may apply but choose to go elsewhere when they see the corrupting influence of sports recruiting.

cavalier302 · July 18, 2006, 1:22pm

I don’t know about that. FWIW, even schools like Duke, Stanford, Michigan and Berkeley take some pretty crappy applicants. Hell, Georgetown even took Allen Iverson.

mam1959 · July 19, 2006, 10:22am

jags - I really, really question whether football at UVa makes a whole lot of money. Very, very few football programs (think Michigan, Texas, Florida, Florida State and Notre Dame) actually make money. A whole cadre of schools, UVa included, chase the holy grail that is football - hoping to get into that scant top echelon. Most fail. So a more accurate statement might be that UVa football in its best years (making it to a big money bowl) makes some money, and that in most years, it scrapes by. UVa - like many other major universities, thinks it needs football to attract alum dollars and (a friend is a consultant for the athletic department) to build a national brand. One may argue that the football team in this regard throws off indirect benefits to the brand and stature of the school, but that line of inquiry will always be of speculative nature - one, however, that the school must be buying into to a certain extent because they are making both the financial and institutional (i.e., letting really marginal students in) investment in the game. (Football is also the great testosterone attractor - it brings males to the school, a not to be ignored factor in college admissions). Again, I am not picking on UVa - other schools are doing the same - but as public universities ago, the median educational and skill level of students is incredibly high, and football and its negative externalities are frankly out of place. Again, don’t ask me - ask (as you can see above) what the serious students at UVa (and that describes 90% of the student body) thinks when they come across these guys in class. It is not so much that they are taking a place from a legitimate student (although they are), it is just that it is demoralizing to see that the University, as regards these guys, is more of a baby-sitter than an educator, and that whatever the players get in return, the miasma of exploitation is rife. Older alums can recall the days when George Allen was the UVa starting QB (yes, the senator) and the team was 1-10. And Allen was considered an awful student. He, however, is a Nobel prize winner compared to the majority of recruits today. Again, unfair to pick on UVa - but from a parents perspective - who hears and to a considerable degree buys into the notion that UVa is an elite school - the athletic department’s antics sure run counter to that notion.

elgordo · July 19, 2006, 11:15am

Mam1959 makes some good points. As an alum I am less inclined to contribute to UVa, given the direction of the athletic program.

Untilted · July 19, 2006, 12:48pm

UVa is not a corporation, investors don’t get to vote for the management. It’s either you give money or no. You have to be committed and passionate towards your school if you want to give money. I will always be giving money, because:

not giving money is always worse than giving money, regardless of the direction UVa management takes.

dajada07 · July 19, 2006, 1:00pm

I think some of the posters are stretching a few points in order to support their argument.

First, while I am not a George Allen supporter, he wasn’t/isn’t the idiot that some claim here. While it is true that he was a mediocre player on some pretty awful football teams (I attended a lot of those games and the highlights often were the UVA punting plays), he did receive a BA with distinction in History and also got his JD from the UVA Law School.

Second, I think that some underrate the impact that football and mens basketball have on the University in general, and the athletic department in particular. At Virginia, the fact is that these programs pay nearly all of the bills for all of the other sports. Furthermore, the fundraising (and application) benefit is direct and very easily measured as better football and basketball teams definitely have a strong and positive impact on fundraising and total number of applications (and this is true for probably every Division I program in the country). While not all schools make money, the University’s football and basketball teams are a strong net cash flow generator and definitely increase the value of the brand regionally, nationally, and sometimes even internationally.

Third, the quality of some student-athletes at Virginia may leave a lot to be desired…until you compare them to the student-athletes at comparable schools. When compared to Princeton or other elite privates, Virginia probably comes out looking pretty bad in terms of the academic quality of the average student-athlete, particularly in the major sports of football and basketball. However, compared to truer comps (Cal-Berkeley, UCLA, Michigan, UNC-CH), then the quality is pretty similar. And when compared to traditional sports powers (Florida State, Penn State, etc.), then the average Virginia student-athlete is likely much stronger. Personally, I’d probably love to see Virginia be as effective as Stanford with great academics and great teams, but the school is definitely broadening and improving its academic competencies with recent sharp improvements in sports like baseball and tennis (which have little to no fundraising or application benefit).

Fourth, with regard to the University’s national athletic standing, the annual Sears Cup measures athletic success across an entire athletic program. Virginia was doing well in this and ranked 13th last year, but slipped to 26th this year as the calculation method was changed and the benefit of success in some sports was reduced (eg, lacrosse). This latest ranking has UVA as 4th in the ACC which is not great, but not 50th either.

Fifth, a college experience is about more than just great academics and Virginia has decided that big-time athletics is a part of the college experience that they offer. While some football players certainly have little to contribute academically, they do make a contribution to the school. I remember being in school with some incredibly smart kids in the Engineering school, but for the life of them, they couldn’t string two sentences together when it came time to write a paper. One could say that their one-dimensional skills made them unworthy of admittance to the U, but I would disagree as they were able to make a strong contribution in their own way. Remember, part of college admissions is about putting together a class and, like it or not, that includes athletes. So, while there certainly are some students who academically don’t measure up to the rest of the student body, they are still able to make a contribution to the school and the environment. Despite the many flaws in the process, Virginia does as good or better job than just about any school in the country at this balancing act.

sv3a · July 19, 2006, 1:10pm

I think the above post is well put. At the end of the day, the relevance of athletics to how ‘elite’ UVA is is minimal, if at all there. Athletics, after all, are entertainment, and are non critical to UVA’s success as an academic institution- a public one at that. The top students still make it in regardless of the athletes, while some of the mediocre applicants are forgone.

dudedad · July 19, 2006, 2:28pm

Old data but UVA doesn’t look too shabby for the football graduation rate…

<a href=“http://www.usatoday.com/printedition/sports/20041207/c7cnotes07.art.htm[/url]”>http://www.usatoday.com/printedition/sports/20041207/c7cnotes07.art.htm</a>

mam1959 · July 31, 2006, 10:59am

I did want to add that I did attend a school in UVa’s conference (ranked considerably higher than Uva)and competed often against UVa, on an athletic scholarship - and was an All American a few times. My brother, an equal if not better athlete, was a professor at UVa. am well aware of the pressures of Division 1 athletics and am not a naive neophyte. But I think it outrageous the degree to which universities cater to (and lower standards for) athletes. It just “up-ends” what a university should be. Tough, tough situation for University presidents - who know deep down that athletics (most often football but other sports as well) as practiced at the Div. 1 level are incredibly corrupting. But the social pressures on them are immense. Any reason to believe that George Welsh (former coach) and Al Groh are anything other than fine men who do well in a tough and demanding job? Of course not. But the fact remains that if they win, they are perhaps the most powerful people on campus - which makes so little sense to me. I hear the rationalizations - athletics are only a part of the campus experience- etc., but really, when viewed from the perspective of the average student and faculty member trying to increase the quality of scholarship, such attempts to minimize the beast that is football (and some other sports) really don’t make sense. And again, I really like sports…

jags861 · July 31, 2006, 12:34pm

why don’t you go to the duke forum and complain about coach k then?

you don’t think the same thing happens at the “ranked considerably higher than UVa” school? I mean afterall, maybe it was athletics that got you and your brother into duke. just because duke has an overall significantly worse athletic program than UVa doesn’t mean that this stuff doesn’t happen there.

The facts are that everytime the football team plays at Scott Stadium, the crowd is 60,000+. Every time. Yes, its unfortunate that not all football players can be geniuses and all stars like tiki and ronde, but atheletes do get priority spots (at all schools), and thats the way to world goes. I think its something we just have to learn to live with - I know I have.

dajada07 · July 31, 2006, 2:15pm

jags, Go easy on the comparison of athletic departments with Duke-Duke ranked 8th in the latest annual Sears Cup athletic ranking. Virginia ranked 26th. Duke football may be pathetic (not sure they could win the Ivy League), but most of the rest of their teams are pretty competitive.

Re the impact of athletics on a school, Coach K is every bit as powerful and well-compensated as any other individual at Duke. And frankly, he is worth it when you consider the huge positive impact that he has had in terms of raising the school’s national profile (with large increases in applications and alumni donations to the school). Same was true with George Welsh at Virginia. Does anyone honestly think that Scott Stadium and the UVA football program would look anything like it does today (60,000 seats, lights, national TV games, etc.) without all of the winning that Welsh’s teams did in the 80s and 90s??? This creates a strong vibe and electricity on the grounds of the University which certainly was not there during the 60s and 70s.

How much alumni giving at Duke or Virginia can be traced back to Coack K or Coach Welsh? Hard to say exactly but the positive impact that both have had on their respective school is obvious when you check the giving records and the respective capital campaigns of each school. Given this, the value proposition of a few questionable admits is actually pretty good. Do all deserve to be there academically? No way, but that does not mean that they can’t make a contribution to the overall life of the school.

GOHOOS1 · July 31, 2006, 2:23pm

Jags, I swear I was ready to write an irate post back at mam but then I read yours and you stole some of my thunder. But…I am still a tad incensed. Mam, I love how you focus on football players at UVa, because of course you can’t compare them to the “genius” players Duke gets for their annual 0-8 ACC seasons. The Duke players may be better in the classroom, but they make for a gameday atmosphere at the delapidated Wallace Wade stadium about as exciting as a funeral. I’m pretty sure the nerdy “Cameron Crazies” are locked in their rooms on Saturday either doing absurd amounts of homework or taking shots of whiskey because they are depressed that they live in Durham. But of course, let’s not talk about Blue Devil basketball. Coach K and his mafia of Dawkins, Wojo, and other Duke communists can get a brick with a negative IQ through the doors at your “ranked considerably higher than UVa” institution. Bobby Hurley had an SAT score that didn’t break 1000, and I’m sure Sheldon “statutory rape” Williams wasn’t exactly a scholar either. Let us also not forget that these players all major in “sociology” and take courses at the local community college for 2 years where their credits transfer over. What a joke. To not criticize your school in this respect is an ignorant move. However, although I just bashed the caliber of student on your basketball team, I acknowledge the pride and enthusiasm the squad brings to the school. That is exactly what sports do: they get students and alums excited about their school. Football and basketball games got me through tough academic weeks at UVa, as I knew that we would be competitive and the gameday atmosphere would be great. If we did a “better job” like Princeton and other Ivy’s, our team would have as much of a chance to compete in the ACC as Duke does on the gridiron. I just graduated from UVa, and unbelievably I landed a job in New York even though my school isn’t ranked as high as the University of New Jersey at Durham. Every time the HOOS are playing in football and basketball, I will be watching at a sports bar to cheer them on. I don’t care if they all aren’t great students, because they make THE UNIVERSITY better as a whole.

Is UVA really that hard to get into?

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