That was an interesting read , Consolation. Many of the examples provided in the piece, I identified with…I just am not sure if it was because of my race , gender , ethnic roots, socioeconomic background , or any other way I may feel pertains to me as an individual.
I think any person would find themselves fitting into many of those uncomfortable situations listed.
I grew up in a rural area with a vibrant community of several races and ethnicities. We , as children were not segregated from each other in any way, but it was assumed that we were all equal , with no fear of any one group or another.
I have been judged for many things over my lifetime from the part of town I live in as a child to my current zip code , my religion , growing up in a single parent household , my physical appearance , my level of education , my age, my gender. I just don’t have a classification to make me feel protected from those who have judged me or offended me.
That being said , I don’t deny that racism exists or that people suffer because of it in this country, present day.
Who died and told you that it is appropriate for you to determine what is and is not problematic for people of color when you don’t know what it’s like to be in our skin?
Again, it’s not about some of you disagreeing with me. It’s that some of you very literally don’t understand cultural appropriation.
I can relate to @3idek3. As a child, I was constantly ridiculed for my full lips, I was told I have “DSL” and many of my white peers in elementary school would ridicule that. Now, those same girls are overlining their lips and getting lip fillers because having full lips is “trendy.”
That’s not simply about trends coming in and out of fashion, it’s about people being ridiculed for something and as soon as white people start doing it, it become’s something appropriate. It’s not about something being adopted by “society” and having it become a trend.
Amanda Stenberg, a young actress, made a crash course video on appropriation titled “Don’t Cash Crop On My Cornrows”, stating:
“The line between cultural appropriation and cultural exchanges always going to be bad but here is the thing. **Appropriation occurs when a style leads to racist generalizations or stereotypes where it originated but is deemed as high fashion, cool or funny when the privileged take it for themselves. **Appropriation occurs when the appropriator is not aware of the deep significance of the culture they are partaking in.”
Sternberg finished appropriately by asking: “What would America be like if it loved black people as much as it loves black culture?”
One thing that many don’t understand about privilege, particularly white people, is that they assume that pointing out privilege is a means of discrediting accomplishments or demonizing.
We all have privilege in some way shape of form. There’s privilege in socioeconomic status, race, religion, gender identity, sexuality, ableness, and hell, even being right handed is a form of privilege.
On that quiz above, I scored 77. It shows that even as a person of color, I am very privileged in areas where many white people have hardship and struggles.
I get white privilege - though by the way, if you substitute gender for race in Consolation’s link there were a number of times when I was not taken seriously because I was a woman, or I was the only woman in the room. But I think you can understand privilege and still feel a bit dubious about the whole notion of cultural appropriation, at least taken to current extremes. (I think most women my age - almost 60 - have had enough of these experiences to understand some of the issues by analogy.)
OTOH I also understand how infuriating it must be that large lips were bad until Hollywood actress made them a thing. Or soul music was bad until white singers took it up.
@CaliCash , I am sorry you experienced being ridiculed for your appearance. Kids , teenagers and sadly, adults can be cruel. It isn’t exclusive to race and ethnicity always , as I am sure you can understand. As I mentioned in a previous post , I have a daughter whose coloring also made her standout in a largely white dominated school. Her father is Scandinavian and her hair and skin color are very light….she often times got picked on because of that , and ALWAYS by other white kids.
Now she is college and her roommate is a black girl from a completely different background . I am pretty sure that the roommate has about as much experience with white peers as my daughter has with black peers , yet I can’t imagine her having a better roommate experience as a freshman . They have learned a lot and have a lot of mutual respect and genuine concern for each other. They are not best buddies , but really have each other’s backs and I am happy that they have shared this year together.
I suspect that both of them had a lot of apprehension about rooming together but those worries were put to rest once they got used to each other
@Pizzagirl@doschicos And I acknowledge my privilege. I never said that I am oppressed, those are your words, not mine. But again, you have no write to say what is or is not oppressive to people of color.
Back to the topic of appropriation, you keep referring to it as if it is simply cultural exchange. In fact, you go as far as to acknowledge that fashion goes in and out of style. BUT you have stopped there, which is why I said the understanding of a few people here is myopic. Some of you haven’t looked at it any deeper.
It’s appropriation when the privileged take something that they used to oppress and then make it into a trend and claim it as their own.
For the first page and a half of this thread, there were many posters who were using appropriation and exchange interchangeably, some going as far as to say appropriation is a compliment. By its very nature, appropriation is not complimenting because part of appropriating something is taking it as your own and making it seem as though you invented it. So you aren’t paying homage to something. You are pretended it never existed in the first place.
Again, I don’t believe this deadlock incident is an example of appropriation. However appropriation does exist in many areas, especially with Native American culture. It is wrong to look at it as appreciation. They are two distinct things.
I saw an opportunity to explain what appropriation is, and I took it. I’m not sure the reasoning behind getting into a debate about the definition of something.
@3idek3 I don’t see the first post (#90) about dreadlocks hairstyles as examples of denying someone’s cultural beliefs/ natural hair, but rather about families going against the established rules of the school.
I really fear that by taking Cultural Appropriation to the extreme, we will become even more divided. Let’s look for ways to strengthen our bond as Americans versus focusing on how were are different. At home with family and friends we can and should celebrate our unique heritages.
I spend my days working with people who have spent their last 20 years in refugee camps and with women who were tortured by evil regimes. Sorry, but why people choose to wear dreadlocks does not make it onto my radar screen.
Young people have so much energy and enthusiasm for their “cause” of choice…I just wish many would stop focusing on themselves and harness that energy for those truly in need.
@pizzagirl@doschicos I’m clearly not changing your mind in this moment though. I do however hope that some of the things I posted will marinate with some of the people who have viewed this thread and they will better understand appropriation.
@Kajon I don’t think there is anything wrong with pointing out our differences. Part of what makes America so great is the amount of people from different walks of life. We should not renounce and ignore the things that make us different. Instead, we should appreciate our differences and use that as an opportunity to learn more about each other.
That is why it is problematic when people don’t “see” race or religion or ethnicity. We should all be able to “see” them and appreciate them regardless. That is what will strengthen our bond as Americans.
@CaliCash For the record, I’ve repeatedly said that I do believe there are legitimate forms of cultural appropriation. I have also repeatedly stated that I don’t think dreadlocks on a white dude is a legit complaint, in my opinion. If a POC believes that, I can understand that viewpoint and I can sympathize, and even empathize, with where that anger is coming from. I’m not sure some of your examples (the sweater analogy or even the bootie reference - which I get just not the timeframe in which you deliver your message) are the best examples to make your case, but I respect your efforts to have this dialogue. Regardless of where we both draw the line on what instances are and aren’t cultural appropriation, I believe that girl in the video was just wrong in the way she handled herself and how she physically handled the guy. My fear is it gives ammunition rather than moving forward an important dialogue regarding race in this country.
BTW, I took that survey you linked and got a 55 despite being fortunate to have a good education and a high socioeconomic standing. I have faced many forms of discrimination in my life although I have walked a different path than you and take nothing away from any pain you’ve experienced in your lifetime.
Another point to make regarding the difficulty in agreeing on what is and isn’t cultural appropriation. Sharing their thoughts on this thread we have at least 2 people of color, calicash amd 3idek3, who disagree on the dreadlock thing. It obviously isn’t a clear cut situation.
@CaliCash - Your point is well taken. I guess I didn’t say that quite right and cannot seem to come up with the words I am looking for. Every person and and every culture are unique and I think every American understands (may not accept, but they understand) that. I think most people are respectful, curious and interested in other traditions. In ALL cultures there are those who draw a line in the sand and want things to remain in a way that makes them feel comfortable. Sometimes this is good (and necessary) and sometimes it disrupts the natural flow of evolving.
I want us all to find a way to remain true to our country while at the same time preserving and honoring our personal traditions. I truly love America and am fearful that we are no longer a people trying to remain one nation, but rather a collection of groups each wanting its own set of ideals and wishes to remain or to become the new standard.
I did not mean to suggest we should ignore our differences, but we do need to spend some time celebrating our similarities!
“It’s appropriation when the privileged take something that they used to oppress and then make it into a trend and claim it as their own.”
I, personally, have never had much opinion on dreadlocks one way or the other. I don’t find them particularly attractive for me so I wouldn’t wear them for me but that has no bearing on what other people of any color should or should not do.
So a) I don’t see why I should be lumped with “those who used to oppress dreadlocks” when I’ve never oppressed anyone who has ever worn them; isn’t it rather racist to lump me in with other whites just because we are white?
And b) I don’t see why I should be lumped in with “those who consider dreadlocks a trend that they want a part of” when I personally don’t have a desire to wear them or view them as a trend for me to concern myself with.
Again, if other people’s white, black or purple, want to wear them, whatever - more power to them.
“Yes, it’s true that dreadlocks are worn in all different cultures around the world, but the context for which they are worn in the US is explicitly rooted in black folks’ (Rastafarians specifically) symbolic resistance to white supremacy.”
You guys are too young to remember the hippies of the 60s, the musical Hair, and so forth. Honestly, dreads have been around for a lot longer than you think in white US culture.
I must say that the ideas that tanning A) only became popular in the last six years, and B) has anything to do with race are both silly.
In fact, there is a long social history associated with “tanning” among those of European ancestry, as there is with body type. Until sometime in the 20th century, being tanned was generally associated with doing outdoor physical labor, and a pale complexion was a sign of higher social class. Then things changed, and being tanned became a sign of having the leisure to acquire one, often is exotic locales, unlike those toiling away in factories and offices. Suddenly the rich people were tan, the poor people were pale. Similarly, being extremely thin used to be a sign of poverty; now it is the wealthy who are thin. (And by thin I mean actually THIN, not slim.)
Well, let’s acknowledge dreadlocks today as primarily “owned” by Rastafarian culture. I think any over-privileged person, black or white, who wears dreadlocks in America is then equally culturally appropriating.
I understand the claim that only whites can appropriate, and anyone else gets a free pass to do anything they want. I don’t think there is any need to give respect or credibility to such a claim.
I had a client who manufactured sunscreens (a brand you’d all know) and I did focus groups in the US, France, Spain, Germany, China and Brazil to explore women’s attitudes towards sun exposure. Suffice to say that it differs greatly by country, based on both the actual amount of sun that cuiture gets, do they wear revealing clothing, how much they prioritize short vs long term skin health, and cultural attitudes towards color. In some of the cultures, getting a tan was an explicit goal; in others, avoiding a tan / color from the sun was an explicit goal. Even in the US specifically, there are differences by socioeconomic class as to the desirability of a tan, so the assertion that “whites in the US really think that getting a tan is desirable” is more of a middle class truth than an upper class truth. And even that has changed over the years. So this kind of blanket assumption that “now whites want to have dark skin and suddenly that’s a hot new thing” is overly simplistic and reductionist.
BTW the very fact that some of you are reacting to the style pronouncements and tastemaker trends of Jezebel, Kylie Jenner, etc says volumes about what you do and don’t understand about social markers. It’s almost as if you assume that’s where all whites draw their tastes from.