I was reading this article this morning about elite college admisions and a book written by former Stanford dean.
Here’s an excerpt from the article:
Thoughts?
I’m sure this is not something that the profs admire in the students and probably is a mark against them (if not an automatic disqualification).
This was at orientation. Presumably Arjun had already interviewed with an Admissions representative while applying. Now it was the parent who had questions, Arjun was nervous. Yes, I think “manufactured kids” probably occur in a relatively small number of instances nationwide, but I think this is a poor example. And without more, I see no evidence here that Arjun was “manufactured.” Indeed, if he were, one would think he would have been coached to ask the right questions. To me, Lythcott-Haims’ argument would be much more compelling if she actually followed Arjun through his 4 years at Stanford, and reported on his success, or lack of it, whatever the case may be.
Basically another way of describing a result made more likely by helicopter parenting.
Look, college admission is Alice in wonderland place. Where else, in the world, do you write an essay about cheer leading to apply to CS, for example? If you want do learn math, how relevant is your grade in History? Why AP classes matter, but AP exams don’t?
Immigrant families are soooo puzzled. Arjun may be quiet because he is not sure, what he is supposed to say. What is the expected reply? What answer does Lythcott-Haims expect?
“I want to get a Nobel price next week? I want to learn and contribute? I am interested in this project? I want to get into Stanford and dad told me that I have to make a research project (and the only lab that accepted me was this lab)? I want to go home, because I am wasting my time, trying to explain you, Lythcott-Haims, scientific project, since you don’t have background to understand terms that I am using”.
What is expected? How Lythcott-Haims may assess kids interest in research if she is not a researcher? Was she ever working in the lab?
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For all the sensitivity training, Lythcott-Haims obviously doesn’t know that in many cultures children are not supposed to interrupt, when parents are talking to authority.
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Not at all. Prof. would talk to the student in the lab. It would be entirely different conversation.
Well, you gotta learn the social mores of American culture if you want to play in Americsn culture. It’s as simple as that.
Yeap. Made in America.
You have to learn the social mores of any country/culture to compete successfully there, no?
Did you miss the part of the passage where the Dean directly addressed the student?
I Ike the term “manufactured”. I think a lot of what elite school adcoms are doing in the admissions process is trying to separate those that have been “manufactured” by themselves, or their parents, from those that are authentically the type of high-achiever that the school would like to admit. My DS has the ability to be “manufactured” but is not authentically an elite school type of student. Those around us have accepted that more slowly than I have. Some folks were truly shocked when I came right out and said so. I am extremely proud of my DS for who he IS, not disappointed because of who he is not. There are lots of great schools for him and he will do just fine in life.
OK, so maybe the kid is just shy. And maybe the Dad isn’t and is a little nervous about this and just kind of jumped in.
I find an awful lot of speculation being made from one brief encounter.
I don’t think the article proves its point. In fact, some parts of it seem to prove the opposite.
The author’s son wanted to drop Spanish after level 2. The author decided to allow it. The son seemed overwhelmed academically, and the author concluded that he didn’t have what it takes to get into the kind of colleges that expect three years of foreign language anyway.
But somewhere else right now, there’s another kid who wants to drop Spanish after level 2 and whose parents are talking him out of it because they realize that the kid may have the potential to get into the kind of colleges that expect three years of foreign language – and it would be unfortunate to throw that option away just because the kid hates conjugating Spanish verbs.
And in both cases, the parents are doing the right thing. In my opinion, a good parent does not allow their kid to make choices with long-term consequences without making sure that those long-term consequences are considered in the decision. And kids often aren’t aware of the long-term impacts of their actions.
If this is helicoptering, then I’m all for the helicopter.
While I also like the catchy term “manufactured” children, I’m definitely noticing what @californiaaa noticed – although I’d describe it as a specifically South Asian cultural dynamic where deferring to the parent is seen as positive and not speaking up for yourself isn’t seen as a negative. (Plus a whole lot more in terms of “manufacturing” issues that would be specific to Arjun’s community.) So yes, Arjun has a problem, but it may not be the problem the writer is claiming. Without more info on Arjun (who I supposed COULD be a WASP kid from Marin whose parents just thought Arjun was a groovy name but probably isn’t), it seems to be a culturally insensitive choice to use as an example, because Arjun is almost certainly dealing with dynamics beyond what the book writer is marketing that make him an apples-to-oranges example.
While Arjun’s issues with parental manufacturing may well be considerable, and of course they disadvantage him in an American cultural context, they’re not what she’s talking about – unless, in the book, she also went into issues specific to both Indian culture and Indian immigrant communities in the US. Otherwise, our hyphenated dean with her highly marketable tips did not find herself working with “increasing number of students like Arjun.” So the book may have good tips and make good points, but that’s a glaring bit of blindness and insensitivity there, either on the part of the dean or the writer who chose that example.
Well, I guess there’s a reason it’s being packaged as pop culture and not legit research.
@Marian wrote
“But somewhere else right now, there’s another kid who wants to drop Spanish after level 2 and whose parents are talking him out of it because they realize that the kid may have the potential to get into the kind of colleges that expect three years of foreign language – and it would be unfortunate to throw that option away just because the kid hates conjugating Spanish verbs.”
…exactly! Our D did not want to take AP Calc, since she was not a great math student, was not going major in STEM, & not particularly fond of the teacher (who she had for Precalc.). However, her dream was to go to Cornell. We told her that it was ultimately up to her, but if she didn’t take it her chances for a Cornell admit (she was already a long shot) would be hurt. She stayed in the class, got into Cornell & absolutely loved her 4 years there.
There is a difference between kids that are successful because they are internally motivated and those that are successful because their parents pushed so hard. While I acknowledge the cultural aspects that play into this specific example, the dad bringing up the question of research opportunities with the dean during orientation does smack of a parent driven kid. Dad wants the kid to do research and wants the dean to know immediately that his kid should be considered for research. It would make me question the kid’s other activities. Were they things he sought out on his own, or things he did because dad pushed him and helped arrange?
I think this is very different from back when I grew up during the 70’s. Parents didn’t push back then like they do now. If a kid had an amazing resume of extracurriculars and volunteer work, in addition to doing well in school, you knew that you had a highly self-motivated kid. But now, when I see these laundry lists of impressive accomplishments, I sometimes wonder if there is a parent there telling the kid that they must take this course, and sign up for that activity.
Just by incredible coincidence, I am 95% sure that I know who this kid is. Even if the Dean changed his first name, she changed it to mimic one of his parents’ names. And the kid does go to Stanford. He is one of the MOST manufactured kids you can imagine.
@me29034 I don’t think it has to be an “either or” proposition. Not every kid with potential is self-motivated, and for ones who are, it kicks in at different ages.
What do helicopters do? They rush sick people to the hospital. They look for people lost in the wilderness. They fight fires, and they look at traffic so drivers can get to work more efficiently. I’m all for helicopters and helicoptering. IMO, the question to ask is whether it is a healthy partnership between parent and child.
When my D was going into 9th grade I pushed her hard to enter a statewide competition. She didn’t want to do it. This was one of the few times that I absolutely insisted. I knew she had the talent, she just didn’t want to do it for a variety of reasons. I kept track of the deadlines, sat down and cajoled her into registering, made sure she finished all the work on time. She didn’t do well in a couple of the categories. But in one, she took first in state. She was shocked. She received recognition and positive reinforcement from her teachers and peers. Each subsequent year she entered entirely on her own. Over four years she won 11 statewide awards. This, in part, led to having her work exhibited in a commercial gallery her senior year, probably the single best EC experience of her high school career. By the time she did her applications last fall, she had an amazing list of ECs. All initiated on her own, but not that first one.
There have been many other times when I have let her slide on things in HS. Every helicopter has to land sometimes. She heads off to college in a few weeks and I have no doubt that there will be many great opportunities that she does not take advantage of, for whatever reason. But if there is a particular opportunity that she really should be considering, and is dragging her feet, I won’t hesitate to step in again and have a heart to heart discussion.
Ironically, on her last visit to the college she eventually chose, I was out for a walk when the student fire dept quickly blocked off the street for no apparent reason. Cars started to back up, but there was silence. Suddenly a lifeflight helicopter appeared from out of nowhere. After landing, it was impressive to see how quickly everyone snapped into action. It made me think about helicoptering in a new way.
So do I.
Also not surprising that most people here disagree with the article… lol