<p>Citygirls mom asks: "“I’m not completely convinced that there is a significant number of moderate Palestinians’ so what does that mean then…gosh”</p>
<p>Being “not moderate” is not the same thing as being a terrorist. You may make that leap but I certainly did not. If you can’t respond to me without twisting and distorting my posts, please ignore me.</p>
<p>From Iloveagoodbrew: “There is no moral equivalency between Israel and Palestine. Yes, its sad if children die. But the terrorists bear the guilt for every innocent Palestinian life lost.”</p>
<p>Right. Every Palestinian life lost can be directly attributed to the incursion into Israel and to the firing of missiles. Had those actions not been taken, the Israeli reaction would not have occureed and, therefore, the dead would still be living.</p>
<p>Citygirlsmom asks: “if they are not moderate, what are they then”</p>
<p>Radicalized? Angry? Desperate? Frustrated?</p>
<p>good post (231)</p>
<p>The idea that all Mr.Olmert has to do is announce that Israel will withdraw to the 1967 borders and peace will break out is incredibly naive. Israel has been trying to negotiate just that for the last 20 years in exchange for it’s own security and statements by all of it’s neighbors that it has a right to exist. If anything the forces that want to liberate “greater Palestine” which is just another way of saying “destroy Israel” have grown. They are not interested in peace. They are interested in removing the Jewish state completely. It is a thorn in their side. These people do not think that 50, 100, 0r 500 years would be too long to wait (and keep the majority of their own people suffering in poverty for that time) for them to reach their goal.<br>
After losing three conventional wars, they have realized that is not the way to achieve their goal (as originally stated by Nasser) of driving the Israelis into the sea. So two generations (of Palestinians) have been deceived by their leadership into believing that such a liberation might occur, and a whole culture of violent struggle and terrorism has become so ingrained that it is difficult to imagine how it might be overcome. </p>
<p>And by the way “right of return” is also another pathway to the destruction of Israel as a Jewish state. Israel will NEVER agree to it. The Palestinians who chose to leave should face the fact that they will never be allowed to return. If you read the history… before 1948 many Palestinians were paid significant sums for their land as Israel was developed. When partition occurred many fled because they were lied to by their Arab neighbors who promised that a short war would liberate their country. They were not forced to flee by Israel. And none of the Arab neighbors welcomed the Palestinian refugees or attempted in any way to integrate them into their country. </p>
<p>Israel has a green light from the US and the moderate Arab states (this is a real switch) to do what they need to do against Hezbollah. The fact that Egypt, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia have actually condemned Hezbollah and not criticized Israel shows that they are just as concerned about Iran and Syria and the radical forces as we are.</p>
<p>Zoos, I think there <em>are</em> moderate Palestinians, who would like to live in a state beside Israel. Unfortunately, I think most of them have left the territories and settled elsewhere. The refugees, and their relatives, who remain, have become more radicalized with each generation. There are people who wish to live in peace, but I don’t think it is the majority.</p>
<p>People seem to forget that Jordan and Egypt were the “occupiers” before 1967, and no Palestinians were complaining about the “occupation” then. Also, prior to the first Intifada, there was no security wall, no checkpoints. Palestinians traveled freely into Israel to work, their standard of living was better. It is the Palestinians whose idea of “resistance” has brought them the difficulties that they currently face, and the younger generations are brought up in a culture of hate, with one goal, and one goal only: the destruction of Jews and Israel. </p>
<p>If a tenth of the money spent from the goodwill of other countries, or of the millions coming from Arab countries, were spent building businesses, schools, their own economy, instead of on weapons and bombs, the Palestinians could have a thriving lifestyle. They are the ones who destroyed the greenhouses, purchased by Jewish philanthropists, when the Israelis left Gaza. The Palestinians have missed every opportunity ever presented to them, in favor of a culture of death and destruction.</p>
<p>They still live in the past, in a dream of their “right of return”. Guess what? It isn’t ever happening, not in this lifetime, not in this century, never. Demographically, Israeli Arabs may take over Israel, but the refugees aren’t coming back, so they should just put that “negotating point” out of their head.</p>
<p>There are Arab moderates, and I know several, here in the US. But they are the ones who have left, and many are still blatantly anti-Israel and anti-Semitic. It’s just that they realize the Palestinians in the territories need to make some concessions, which their breathen have not yet realized.</p>
<p>Allmusic posted: “There are Arab moderates, and I know several, here in the US. But they are the ones who have left, and many are still blatantly anti-Israel and anti-Semitic. It’s just that they realize the Palestinians in the territories need to make some concessions, which their breathen have not yet realized”</p>
<p>You posted much more eloquently exactly what I was thinking. It’s true that the people who desire a good and peaceful life have gone elsewhere to find it, leaving behind many who want to fight to further an idealogy. The bottom line is that I believe Israel is engaged in an existential conflict and I fully support the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state. That’s where my disagreement with the Palestinians and their supporters comes in. Accept the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state and then we can begin to move on. Unfortunately, that is the one thing the Palestinians, their supporters, and the anti-semites in the world will never do that, so there is no moving on.</p>
<p>cgm: Would you please provide a link to whatever it was that Bolton said that bothered you. I’ve searched google and can’t find anything that he said that even comes remotely close to what you are saying he said.</p>
<p>BEIT SAHOUR, July 17, 2006, (WAFA)- The Palestinian Center for Public Opinion (PCPO) reported Monday that a great majority, (65.1%) of the Palestinians are, at various degrees, in favour of resuming the peace negotiations with Israel.</p>
<p>here is link</p>
<p><a href=“http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060717/pl_afp/mideastconflictlebanon_060717204728[/url]”>http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060717/pl_afp/mideastconflictlebanon_060717204728</a></p>
<p>Convoys of foreign nationals also traveled the hazardous route by road to Syria from Lebanon to flee a seventh day of an Israeli bombardment which has killed at least 230 people in Lebanon, all but 26 of them civilians.</p>
<p>I am not for either side, because BOTH sides have acted in bad faith for years, but for our government to say that innocent, civilians that happen to be Lebanese that their deaths are less tragic than other innocents deaths is just sad, no other words for it</p>
<p>Yes there are moderate Palistenians, as there are Moderate Jews, as there are moderates everywhere</p>
<p>The use of the word "moderate’ by Zoosermom was not as she now claims…but go ahead, twist your own words</p>
<p>this is a mess, we are making it worse, Israel is not innocent in this by any means, neither is anyone else</p>
<p>Listening to a Rabbi this morning was fascinating. Think he had a good persepctive. And he said Israel has responsibiity in the mess for not living up to their own promises.</p>
<p>And Lebadon has its own issues…
But hey, Israel is like Bush, they are never wrong in somer peoples eyes, but those Jewish Groups stepping up and saying this is not good, they have no clue</p>
<p>CGM Posts: "The use of the word “moderate’ by Zoosermom was not as she now claims…but go ahead, twist your own words”</p>
<p>How dare you presume to know what my thoughts/intent were?</p>
<p>let us follow zoosermoms train of thought, shall we:</p>
<p>I think there are some, perhaps many, Palestinians who want good and peaceful lives, but I do think there are also many who don’t.</p>
<p>What I DO think, however, is that the culture has become poisoned and many of the citizens have become radicalized.</p>
<p>I’m not completely convinced that there is a significant number of moderate Palestinians.</p>
<p>Citygirlsmom asks: “if they are not moderate, what are they then”</p>
<p>Radicalized? Angry? Desperate? Frustrated?</p>
<p>So by you logic, anyone who is desperate or frustrated cannot be a moderate, NOW</p>
<p>not what you implied before</p>
<p>sorry if I presumed by your own words that the are not many moderates and that being frustrated, even with your own government means you are a radical</p>
<p>got it</p>
<p>Go one thinking the Israel has no hand in the problems</p>
<p>They promised to leave Gaza within 5 years and yet doubled the population there…NO ONE in the area is to be trusted to follow through i guess, not even israel</p>
<p>All countries in the region are responsible for this mess, no one is blameless</p>
<p>CGM twists and deceives: j"sorry if I presumed by your own words that the are not many moderates and that being frustrated, even with your own government means you are a radical got it"</p>
<p>You are positively pathological. This is your quote with which I take exception and to which I responded: “But guess most Palestinians are terrorists, well, according to zoosermom”</p>
<p>I never posted any such thing, did not intend any such thing and don’t hold the viewpoint that you ascribed to me. In your most recent post you twist and spin away from that because you know it was a bald-faced lie. </p>
<p>You presumed. Right. You brought your own biases and opinions to MY words. Why don’t you voice your own opinions and respond to what other people actually post instead of creating a dialogue with yourself holding both parts?</p>
<p>“Are you suggesting the right of return as a serious possibility? You really do support the end of the Jewish state, don’t you?”</p>
<p>No, right of return is unlikely to be granted by Israel; compensation is a bit more likely. No, I support Israel’s continued existence, but I think they’ll have to make painful compromises to attain peace, just as the Palestinians must.</p>
<p>I do voice my own…and you post yours…you called most palesetinians radicals, but fine, don’t say you did, that is okay with me, your words speak for themselves…you are in denial</p>
<p>You did intend it…but if you need to back track that is fine, I understand</p>
<p>Here is some interesisting timelines from different prespectives:</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=118&x_article=1148[/url]”>Timeline of Hezbollah Violence | CAMERA;
<p><a href=“http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=863ddb00-1abc-409e-9682-19c50e65cfbf[/url]”>http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=863ddb00-1abc-409e-9682-19c50e65cfbf</a></p>
<p><a href=“http://www.afsc.org/israel-palestine/learn/timeline.htm[/url]”>http://www.afsc.org/israel-palestine/learn/timeline.htm</a>
(this one is by thequakers)</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.mideastweb.org/timeline.htm[/url]”>http://www.mideastweb.org/timeline.htm</a></p>
<p><a href=“http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/israel/timeline/timeline4.html[/url]”>http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/israel/timeline/timeline4.html</a></p>
<p><a href=“http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/14/israel.lebanon.timeline/[/url]”>http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/14/israel.lebanon.timeline/</a></p>
<p>when did anyone say the end of the Jewish state? I never did. I just don’t hold Israel blameless in this mess, but others do.</p>
<p>I think it was an overreaction, but hey, as I said before, good think England didn’t bomb the heck out of Dublin</p>
<p>More #s</p>
<p>A poll in Israel shows the vast majority of the public backs the campaign.
BEIRUT, July 18 (Reuters) - A dairy factory, a lighthouse, civilian buses and a medical truck are just a few of the more puzzling targets hit in Israel’s week-old pounding of Lebanon.
Israeli generals say they need several more weeks to achieve their goal of crippling Shi’ite Muslim Hizbollah guerrillas. But Lebanese are wondering what is left to hit in raids that Prime Minister Fouad Siniora says have caused material damage of billions of dollars on top of tourism and investment losses.
Israel launched its offensive after Hizbollah guerrillas seized two of its soldiers and killed eight in a cross-border raid, but air raids have shattered much of Lebanon’s civilian infrastructure, as well as striking at Hizbollah targets.
According to Lebanese police, at least 42 bridges have been destroyed and 38 roads cut in an aerial onslaught that has also targeted communications equipment and factories. Runways and fuel depots at Beirut airport have been hit repeatedly.
Israeli jets have bombed two smaller airports, as well as the main ports of Beirut and Tripoli in the north. Petrol stations and fuel tanks at power stations have been set ablaze.
Some raids, such as those that have reduced to rubble Hizbollah’s main compound in Beirut’s southern Haret Hreik district, or those striking at elusive Hizbollah guerrillas firing rockets at Israel have a certain logic to them.
But Hizbollah officials long abandoned the offices and homes that Israel has been systematically destroying, with deadly consequences for Lebanese civilians in the vicinity.
CIVILIAN CASUALTIES
Israel accuses Hizbollah of hiding rockets in homes and firing them from villages, trying to use civilians as human shields. Hizbollah rocket attacks have killed 12 Israelis.
At least 230 people, all but 26 of them civilians, have been killed in Lebanon. Hizbollah has acknowledged only three deaths in its ranks. More than 20 Lebanese soldiers have been killed, including 11 in a strike on the Jamhour barracks east of Beirut on Tuesday and nine at an army post in Tripoli the day before.
Many Lebanese, bitter if not surprised at the havoc Israel is wreaking on their country, find it hard to understand why the Israelis are bombing the Lebanese army – the same army Israel says it wants to replace Hizbollah guerrillas in the south.
Nor has Israel, which allied with Christian militias when it invaded Lebanon to expel Palestinian guerrillas in 1982, spared Christian ports like Jounieh and Amsheet north of Beirut.
The army says it regrets civilian casualties and only attacks bridges, roads and other infrastructure to make it harder for Hizbollah to fire rockets into Israeli cities.
It says Lebanese army installations are only hit if they are used to attack Israeli forces, and that coastal radar stations were bombed because they were used in Hizbollah’s missile attack on an Israeli ship – a claim not confirmed in Beirut.
The lighthouse on Beirut’s seafront corniche had a small radar on top before it was hit by a pinpoint missile strike.
“We are targeting Hizbollah targets. All the targets, directly or indirectly, are related to Hizbollah attacks on our civilians,” said Israeli army spokesman, Captain Jacob Dallal.
Some in Lebanon find this a bit of a stretch, given that many of the civilian targets Israel has been bombing are outside Shi’ite areas and far from Hizbollah’s southern strongholds.
“This is a creative definition of terrorism,” said Timur Goksel, former spokesman for U.N. peacekeepers in south Lebanon.</p>
<p>Vossrun posts: “No, right of return is unlikely to be granted by Israel; compensation is a bit more likely. No, I support Israel’s continued existence, but I think they’ll have to make painful compromises to attain peace, just as the Palestinians must”</p>
<p>thank you for clarifying. I didn’t get that from the previous post and agree with this completely.</p>
<p>CGM continues to twist: "I do voice my own…and you post yours…you called most palesetinians radicals, but fine, don’t say you did, that is okay with me, your words speak for themselves…you are in denial</p>
<p>You did intend it…but if you need to back track that is fine, I understand"</p>
<p>I never, ever said that most Palestinians were TERRORISTS, which is the word that you posted previously and about which we are arguing. Either find the quote and post it or apologize. I haven’t backtracked at all, that’s what you’ve been doing since caught in lies. Most Palestinians ARE radicals. But that is not the same thing as a terrorist. Do you need a dictionary?</p>
<p>There is a very-long-term issue at work: The higher birthrate of Israeli Arabs. Let’s say fighting continues unabated for many more decades. If democracy continues in Israel, ever so slowly the Knesset would become more and more Arab, less and less Jewish. I haven’t seen current projections; it may take 50 years or more. Ultimately the two sides might peacefully merge, resulting in a much larger Israel, but with a majority Arab population. In any case, the birthrate difference will have <em>some</em> long-term effect.</p>
<p>Voss posts: “Ultimately the two sides might peacefully merge, resulting in a much larger Israel, but with a majority Arab population. In any case, the birthrate difference will have <em>some</em> long-term effect.”</p>
<p>As a supporter of Israel as a Jewish state, I sincerely hope that doesn’t happen. But, as you say, demographics are awfully important.</p>
<p>cgm: did you read what Bolton said? He didn’t say anything like what you accused him of. Why do you have to make stuff up to support your views? Shouldn’t those views be able to stand on their own merit without your fabricating things out of thin air?</p>
<p>CGM:
Bolton quote: “It’s simply not the same thing to say that it’s the same act to deliberately target innocent civilians, to desire their deaths, to fire rockets and use explosive devices or kidnapping versus the sad and highly unfortunate consequences of self-defense,” Bolton noted.</p>
<p>You may agree or disagree, but he did not say that Lebanese lives were less valuable than Israelis. And saying that most Palestinians are angry and radical is not the same as saying they are terrorists.</p>
<p>There are many reasons to criticize Israels actions both from a moral and a tactical view. No need to exaggerate.</p>