Israeli troops launch raid deep into Lebanon

<p>Come on, you can answer that, it was a very honest question…
I don’t think this is all about protecting Israeli people alone, there are deeper political reasons, but hey, we disagree. To protect me, I would not want some baby in Iraq killed. But guess that is just me.</p>

<p>Okay, I will rephrase the question zoosermom:</p>

<p>If a PEOPLE of a country elect a group that you consider violent, do you consider those people…what? </p>

<p>If a person gives support to, through elections, a group that has shown perhaps they have terrorists asperations, what is that person?</p>

<p><a href=“http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/07/20/MNGU1K2AVD1.DTL[/url]”>http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/07/20/MNGU1K2AVD1.DTL&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Interesting article- both sides are doing bad bad things -</p>

<p>My point has been and still is, one side is not more justified than the other for killing babies, moms, the elderly</p>

<p>and that Israel, regardless of how justified they feel, is killing and injuring many people, destroying a country…when I think some restraint could have contained the situation, given them MORE securiity in the area in the long run, and that unlike in the past, where there was real precision, a lightning strike kind of response, the world wasn’t questioning, but as they destroy roads, airports, mosques, schools, etc., it appears, no matter what they say, that they disregard human life</p>

<p>The words “collateral damage” is another way to disregarding human lives. call them dead souls, call them people, call them soldiers and civilians, but that term equates them with things</p>

<p>I am done here, don’t expect any real answer from zoosermom</p>

<p>If I put the pieces together wrong, sorry</p>

<p>cgm - I am sorry but let’s get realistic. Do you think that people, somewhere in the world, are not suffering and even dying every day to support (directly or indirectly) and protect us and our way of life?! They do! If you cannot live with that then you time on earth is going to be miserable indeed.</p>

<p>

A butcher? A baker? A candlestick maker? A terrorist perhaps?</p>

<p>CGM asks: “If a PEOPLE of a country elect a group that you consider violent, do you consider those people…what?”</p>

<p>Violence isn’t necessarily the same as terrorism. There’s overlap, of course, but to answer your question, I would consider the people who voted for the violent regime to be supporters of a violent regime. The distinction I was making, way back in the earlier thread before you twisted my words, was that I believe that there are a lot of “Palestinians” who are angry, frustrated, whatever, who support the tactics of Hamas and who voted for those tactics by voting for Hamas. I didn’t call those people terrorists because I think the election results have as much to do with the realities on the ground in “Palestine” as they do with the desire of actual citizens to engage in those tactics that will continually deprive them of a state. I think the situation is quite complicated but my point was always that people who commit violence against civilians are terrorists. I find terrorist to be an “active” noun, rather than an adjective to throw around willy-nilly. Which is not to say that I don’t find the “Palestinian” culture to be poisoned and toxic, I do. I also don’t necessarily think it is possible to live in peace with a culture like that on one’s border. In my posts, I intended to refer to terrorists as people who committed acts of terrorism and I think I was very clear on that until you decided that you know what I intended better than I did. You don’t have to agree, that’s fine, but you don’t have the right to attribute to me specific words that I never used. </p>

<p>“If a person gives support to, through elections, a group that has shown perhaps they have terrorists asperations, what is that person?”</p>

<p>A terrorist supporter? A hate-monger, a war-monger? Loathsome? Evil?</p>

<p>From a Times reporter in southern Lebanon, reinforcing the American comment about waiting for Israel to “defang” Hezbollah before sending Condi to the region. <a href=“The Times & The Sunday Times: breaking news & today's latest headlines”>http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2278300,00.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>Sounds like things are going according to plan. Good. Time for Hezbollah to become an ex-entity</p>

<p>I agree it’s past time for Hezbollah to be history, but Condi and Bush both sitting on their hands is really, really odd.</p>

<p>a problem is a vacuum will be created, a big hole in a destroyed country…what will be its replacement?</p>

<p>I know what we would all like, but in this international game of three dimensional chess (not checkers) what group will be able to swoop in and gain control</p>

<p>the Lebanese govt has to rebuild its country…whaqt nations will step in to help…and when they do, what influence will they have? Russia, Iran, the USA</p>

<p>I don’t have the answers, but we can hazards some guesses</p>

<p>And will it be safer for israel? Or will the new group be worse because of the recent events? When a country is in ruins, the infratructure needing to be rebuilt, as Lebanon was before, what will the neighbors be like now</p>

<p>Before I would guess, that many Lebanese weren’t that worried about Israel, now,. after getting bombed to the heavens, who will they blame…with the Lebonese army perhaps getting involved…well…who knows where the anger will be placed and who will be elected next</p>

<p>I think it is a strategic sitting, meant to give Israel freer reign in the short term. Also, after the DMZ is created, Condi will go over and demand a resolution and the Israelis will be able to comply–giving the US a Peace Broker image. </p>

<p>While I have strong sympathy for the Lebanese, I am relieved as the conflict appears to be a local, rather than a regional conflict.</p>

<p>“While I have strong sympathy for the Lebanese, I am relieved as the conflict appears to be a local, rather than a regional conflict.”</p>

<p>It’s the peace-loving Arabs and Iranians who have kept it that way, at least thus far.</p>

<p>Give thanks. ;)</p>

<p>and we are involved with our $$$…no matter how much we like to think we are not…30% or so of our foreign aid goes to Israel</p>

<p>just the facts</p>

<p>No it doesn’t. Iraq gets most. Egypt is second to Israel on the list. How about that?</p>

<p>This conflict has little to do with Iraq…had saddam been in power it would have been much worse and if u ask me i am absolutely glad the US is sitting on their hands this is israel’s problem and not americas and they shuold let israel do what it needs to do.</p>

<p>U mentioned israels disregard for life and all thie things they attack like mosques roads and schools. Id like to tell you y they attack those things. because thats wear the terrorists are, idiot.</p>

<p>Second, Hamas doesnt so much have terrorist aspirations per se as say they have actually succeeded in terrorism and were founded on basis of terror. The only reason they won the election is because Israel left gaza and Hamas took the credit.</p>

<p>Citygirlmom, im not asking you to give ur solution to the Israeli-Arab problem. I understand you do not have enough intellect to do that nor do you known enough history about the 2 groups of people to do that all i am asking is for you to tell me what u would have done in place of israel in this very situation. Remember the objective is to protect the jews so what would you have done. So far you have lambasted the israeli government for its actions yet u offered no alternative so from that it seems that u rather have israel sit tight and wait for peace to come. Seems to me ur solution to the problem is actually the a version of hitlers final solution. When the jews die there wont be anymore conflict rite?</p>

<p>Let me give u some history of the region so you can understand y the israelis cannot use restraint and cannot wait for peace:
Im gonna take you back more than 50 yrs to 1947. In 1947 the UN partitioned 80% of Palestine into a country for Jews and one for arabs. The Jews accepted this and in 1948 Ben-Gurion declared independance in a tel-aviv basement under the threat of airstrikes. He was under this threat because while the jews were accepting the partition and creating a homeland the arabs were rejecting it because they wanted to finish what hitler started a few yrs back. So armies from jordan, lebanon, syria, egypt, libya, iraq, and saudi-arabia attacked israel. Once again the jews faced destruction, no country would sell them weapons and basically they were *<strong><em>ed but somehow miraculously the jews won the war and israel was born. I understand that you arabs call this day al-nabka meaning the catastrophe. Had the jews shown restraint israel would have been smashed and once again jewish blood would have been spilled. But israel fought, did not wait for peace, and by winning the war, made peace for itself. In the conflict Israel managed to win more land than was allotted and egypt captured gaza, which was intended for the arab state, Jordan captured E. Jerusalem, Judea, and Samaria, which was inteded for the arab state, and syria captured the golan heights, which were intended for the arab state. In addition roughly 600, 000 arabs left israel mostly at the bidding of the arab countries and propoganda lies, and about 550,000 jews left arab countries into israel for fear of their lives (a population exchange perhaps?) . Lets fastforward to 1956. In 1956 Egypt layed a blockade on the suez canal. This was an act of war according to Int’l law (incidently only israel and america are ever bound to follow this law). Israel, france, and england launch the sinai campaign to free the canal and they did so succesfuly. Had israel shown restraint and not freed the canal they would have suffered terrible economic losses. Meanwhile, Egypt and Jordan have done nothing to help assimilate the arabs living in Gaza and Judea, Samaria. They let them wallow in their refugee camps and slowly build *</em></strong>ty towns and cities out of them. In 1964 yasser arafat an egyptian born soldier and terrorist forms the Palestinian Liberation Orginization. (On a side note the arabs claim all they want is West bank and gaza, not the rest of israel, well the PLO was founded 3 yrs before these lands were controlled by israel, makes u think doesnt it.) The PLO charter had an interesting clause that stated that the arabs would not try to gain any autonomy in gaza, west bank, or golan heights. In 1966/1967 Egyptian and syrian forces ammassed on their borders with israel and began traning exercises. Simeotaneously, Egypt blocked the suez canal and straits of tiran, again an act of war according to int’l law. They politely asked the UN peacekeeprs iin the suez canal to pack their **** and go. So now israel is vastly out numbered and starring down the barrels of egyptian and syrian guns and letys not forget the econmic threat of having their shipping blocked. Oil prices soar in israel. So in june of 67 Israel launches a pre-emptive attack on egypt, decimating their sinai airforce bases. Egpytian and syrian soldiers immediately pour accross the border. Israelis push back the syrians and capture the golan heights, a small mountain region from where syrian army would gun down jews farming and swimming in the valley below. The Israelis push into sinai peninsula, capture it, and open up the suez canal and straits of tiran to their shipping. As this is happening, Moshe Dayan, either chief of staff or defense minister (i forgot) sends the egyptians a message that he does not wish to enter the gaza strip but if the egyptian army starts shooting from their the isralis would be forced to enter. Lo and behold shelling starts from gaza and israelis enter and capture the strip. And while this is going on the Israelis send a stern messege to Jordans King Hussien that if the jordanians enter this war the israelis would make every effort to recapture jerusalem, and other holy cities like hebron and bethlehem. The jordanians do not heed the warning and attack israel. The israeli army liberates e. j’lem and judea and samaria. This all occurs in a matter of 6 days. The war has increased israels buffer zone from attacks and shelling that have been happening since 1948. Upon entering j’lem the israelis find latrines made of jewish tomb stones from the ancient Mt. Olives Cemetery. Other holy sites have been desecrated. In the aftermath of the war, UN resolution 242 is passed. One of the things it asks for is the return of “terroritories” the resol. ommits the word “the” prior to terretories in order to say that israel does not need to leave ALL of them, just some. Israel accepts the resolution and yrs later returns 92% of the terretories won in the 6day war by giving the egyptians the sinai peninsula and the jordanians a 200 meter strip of land in the west bank. The egyptian and jordians reject israels offers of returning gaza and parts of west bank. They do not want “those” arabs on their hands. Had the israelis shown restraint and not attacked egypt they mite have been wiiped off them map and pushed into the sea. Apparantely, 6 day war bought more peace for the jewish state. In 1970 the arabs initate a war of attrition. Terrorists and guerrilas from egypt, gaza, and syria lead raids into the Israel kill soldiers, sabatoge water plants, break into homes and kill the jews. Israel does not show restraint and orders counter raids. Led by ariel sharon the commando 57 troops succesfully manage to quell most of the attacks. Again israel FAILED to show restraint and only bought itself peace. Again Israel was not the first aggressor. Again Israel acted in retribution and self-defense to the arabs. In 1973 as the 97% of israelis are packed in synagogues on Yom kippur the egyptians and syrians surprise attack israel. Israelis are at a loss and the first week of the war goes terrible they suffer huge casulties and it seems for the first time since 1948 that the jews will actually lose this war and will all perish. However in the 2nd week their fortunes turn around an emergency airlift of weapons alleviates the israeli logistics problem and their counterattack is succesful israeli push the egpytians out of sinai and on to their bank of suez, the syrians who vastly outnumber israelis in tanks, people, and planes are pushed back into syria but at a heavy expense for the jews. They suffer terrible losses but once AGAIN israel show NO restraint and once again it stopped the arabs from destroying them. Once again the arabs were the agressors and once again the Israelis were the defenders. No wonder their army is called tzva hagana lyisroel- “Israeli DEFENSE Forces” The israelis buy themselves more peace and security. Finally the egyptians come to the realization that the israelis will accept a peace and in 79 the camp david accords are worked out. Egypt and Israel have signed a peace treaty. Israel returns to egypt all of sinai peninsula with all booming israeli buisnesses intact. They egyptian just promise peace, nothing more nothing less, nothing tangible. Yet terror continues from other places. Israel however begins to grow economicaly and socially. A great country is blossoming from the marshes and deserts that arabs have not been able to build anything on. In the late 70 and early 80’s hezbollah emerges in lebanon and iran and it strikes israel from lebnanon. In 1982 the israelis invade southern lebanon only to evacuate in 2000. In this war israels fatal mistake was its abandoment of christian militias. The lebanese were not supporting hezballah and were on the side of israelis and the christians. Israel fails to help the christians and the conflict flounders yet israel manages to buy itself more security. The attakcs from hezballa are curbed. Israel grows and prospers. Again the israelis showed no restraint and again it only brought them peace and security.</p>

<p>CGM:
Just the facts:

</a></p>

<p>Aid to Egypt Jordan and Ethiopia equals that given to Israel (I am not counting Pakistan and Afghanistan among other predominately Islamic countries0</p>

<p>In early 90’s rabin, the PM of israel, brings arafat back from exile in tunisia and works out a peace agreemennt. He grant autonomy to many arab cities and judea and samaria. The israelis arm the palestian arab police and hope **** works out. But it doesnt The arabs turn israels guns on israel and continue to kill jews. Israel reaches to give peace and the arabs just reject it. In 2000 ehud barak, an israeli war hero and PM, makes the greates peace overture in israeli histroy. Clinton was surprised and even angry at barak for offering so much for nothing. What did barak offer the arabs? A palestinian arab state in gaza, and 88% of the west bank and E. Jerusalem. He was willing to give away thje heart of the jews the soul of the jews. He only stopped short of the rite of return. Arafat mulled the deal over and realized it wasnt profitable. Y? not enough jews have died and so he rejects the peace offering and launches the 2nd intifada. Jews are shot, blown up, drowned, stabbed the works. Its a field day for the arabs. When the jews show restraint and offer peace it doesnt work.In 2005 ariel sharon decides to try again hell y not and so he expells every jew from gaza, he even uproots the cemeteries so that arabs cannot desecrate them. Land for peace is the term for this. Israel gives land, Israel gets peace. Or does it? The ball is now in the arabs court. Do they make peace or continue war. And they choose war they elect hamas to gov’t, increase and stregthen terror bases. They fire rockets into sderot and send bombers into israel. So now its the summer of 06 and where have we gotten. In june terrorists from gaza go into Israeli-proper terretory kill 2 soldiers and kidnapp a 3rd, Cpl. Gilad Shalit. A day or 2 later terrorists from judean and shomrom kidnapp and israeli teen studying at yeshiva, murder him, and leave him somewhere on the ground. Then hezballa in the north goes into israel kills 8 soldiers, kidnapps 2, and rains rockets on israeli towns. They do so indiscrimantely. The stated goal of hezballa rockets is to hit innocent jews and arabs in israel. They succeed and kill a grandmother and grandson. They succeed and kill a woman enjoying coffee on her balcony. Hezbalah shoots their rockets from behind schools, from behind civillians, in crowded areas. Y? because they do not value life, they know that the jews do and they will be hestitant to shoot a really crowded place and so they use thses people as sheilds, human shields. So citygirlmom, what does israel do now. Tell me please you have avoided this answer in everyone of ur posts. I am not talking about the whole conflict but about this specific instance WHAT DOES ISRAEL DO. Does it show restraint as it did in 1993, 2000, 2005 or does it fight as it did in 48, 56, 67, 70, 73, and 82. My bet is u wont even answer this post. But anyone is welcome to tell me an alternative to what israel did.</p>

<p>the second long paragraph is a continuation to the first one</p>

<p>Thank you Ahmadineja, for not killing Jews. I know you said you want to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. But thank you for showing restraint. Thank you for not sending missiles to Hezbollah. Thank you for loving peace.</p>

<p>I think you should write him directly. I’m sure he’ll write back.</p>

<p>I was hoping I could tell him in person. Perhaps when we meet in Paradise.</p>