<p>I guess Hawking’s sadly prophetic idea to colonize outer space could not come soon enough — not because of factors beyond our control, rather because of our inability to end our own follies — it is just sickening what man does to his fellow man. Will we wake up before this lonely planet, our one and only home, is rendered uninhabitable due to our stupidity?!</p>
<p>mini israel traets their prisoners with respect. torture is just as illegal in israel than as in america. dont gimme that israel is a terrorist country bs.</p>
<p>But, they don’t treat their prisoners as POWs. So whether or not they treat 'em with respect (Human Rights Watch has cited Israel for torture of prisoners on numerous occasions, but that’s beside the point), by what you said, Israel is a terrorist organization. To quote you again: “Terrorists don’t treat their prisoners as POWs unfortunately.”</p>
<p>“I agree that there seems to be little to no democracy in Iran, the power has merely shifted from one elite (the shah) to another (the clerics).”</p>
<p>Multi-party elections, regularly held, with major differences among the parties, in the teeth of being surrounded by the largest (and aggressive) military power in the history of the world (and that had overthrown their democracy once, and then trained torturers in Fort Benning, Georgia) doesn’t do it for you?</p>
<p>I would not choose the current Iranian government, if I had the choice. But then I wouldn’t choose the current U.S. government, if I had the choice. (But in both cases, I could vote, though the choices in Iran - though still not to my liking - would be wider.)</p>
<p>“The invasion into Gaza, and destroying of infrastucture etc. seems far too serious a consequence to the solder kidnapping, but at what point does a sovereign nation protect itself? Or does it not have that right?”</p>
<p>I already answered - they should bomb pediatric hospitals, or the electrical generation plants that keep them running. That’ll teach 'em.</p>
<p>When you make war on an entire people, you shouldn’t be surprised when they fight back. It’s just tit for tat - who is tit and who tat I’ll leave to your own political predilections.</p>
<p>“I would not choose the current Iranian government, if I had the choice. But then I wouldn’t choose the current U.S. government, if I had the choice. (But in both cases, I could vote, though the choices in Iran - though still not to my liking - would be wider.)”</p>
<p>Wow.</p>
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<p>The goal is not to be “further ahead”–we already are obviously ahead of Iran. The goal is to defend American interests. </p>
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<p>We don’t need to invade. Airstrikes would do just fine. </p>
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<p>Ummmm…LOL. What’s your point? </p>
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<p>Then how do you propose dealing with nuclear proliferation?</p>
<p>The choices in Iran ARE wider. I lived and worked in Iran - and for the U.S. government. This is something I know about. Compared with the multi-party elections in Iran, the Republocrats in the U.S. look like a one-party state.</p>
<p>And, no, I wouldn’t choose any of them, though in the former case, it ain’t my choice to make.</p>
<p>mini,</p>
<p>That is interesting that you “lived and worked in Iran”. When was that? Could it have been back in the mid-60’s when I was living there and going to middle and high school? Where did you live? My family and I lived north of Teheran at the feet, practically, of the Elburz Mountains. I have never been back, but have seen pictures of how the city has grown. — unbelievable!</p>
<p>When you say our present government you mean the current administration or the gov’t. system itself?</p>
<p>I lived and worked in Isfahan - 70s. Had friends north of Tehran. </p>
<p>Gov’t system itself.</p>
<p>mini, I have many dear Iranian friends. None of them support your statement that Iran is a functioning democracy. How can you read books such as ‘Reading Lolita in Tehran’ and suggest such a thing? </p>
<p>Has your disgust with the US has reached a boiling point? Perhaps you should emigrate? Honestly, the day to freedoms of Americans are the envy of so many living under repressive regimes like Iran’s. Disparage the failings, yes, but flog the messenger with such spite? To what end? </p>
<p>However, why does everyone assume it is Iran escalating the violence? Isn’t there another country which would dearly love to switch the channel from it’s failings at the moment? Isn’t there another country with a determined agenda for the Middle east?</p>
<p>(Allmusic–cyber prayers to your family. I had grave worries from the first incident of kidnapping).</p>
<p>I think there is a lot more going on here than meets the eye. Hizbollah is a direct agent of Iran, working in Lebanon at the behest of the madmen who are running that country (Iran). Iran wants to provoke Israel and the US, and direct everybody’s attention away from the UN’s attempts to halt their feverish attempts to produce a nuclear weapon. Some intelligence suggests they are very close (a year or less to a usable weapon) In any case they are hoping for a very aggressive response from Israel so they can step up the rhetoric, and get even more support within their country and the Arab world so they can get that nuclear weapon. and then g-d help us.</p>
<p>The other side of the equation is that if Israel does not respond aggressively, they will be subject to constant rocket bombardment from Hizbollah, who would be freely operating in Lebanon, and again once Iran gets nukes, there is a lot more to worry about. Hizbollah has already bragged they have thousands of missiles aimed at the North of Israel, and don’t think those don’t have the potential to cause a great deal of destruction, even without a nuke. </p>
<p>I don’t have a solution, but I know Israel and the US are going to have to deal with Iran’s government sooner or later, and I don’t think peaceful solutions are in the equation. Better sooner before the nukes are ready. I know that if the US doesn’t have the stomach for it, Israel is going to do it before the nukes go on board. They know Iran would not hesitate for a second to use a nuke on Israel once they have them. In fact I believe that this madman who is in charge there thinks that he is going to be the “savior” of the Arab world by finally successfully getting nukes and fulfilling his dream of reclaiming Palestine for all Arabs. The only hope here is that the moderate Arab states (Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan etc.) finally come on board and realize that they are going to be have to be aggressive as well in stopping the above scenario from unfolding. Their response in the last day or so has been suggestive that they are just as concerned about what Iran and Syria’s plans are. We’ll see.</p>
<p>And mini… I assume from your post you are comfortable with Iran’s leadership and the “democratic process” as it has unfolded there. what a joke that is. Maybe you haven’t been following the virulent antisemitic, antizionist rhetoric and threats that have been spewing out of their leader’s mouth for months now. Or maybe you think that they have the right to threaten Israel with complete destruction. </p>
<p>Israel has every right to respond aggressively to this incursion by Hizbollah, until they have made it clear that there will be severe penalties for allowing Hizbollah to operate freely, and for killing Israeli civilians with rockets. They have the right to go in there and stay until they destroy every rocket site, and every terrorist camp in that area.</p>
<p>mini,</p>
<p>I loved Isfahan when we visited – the shaking minaret, the bazar, the blue (?) mosque. Is the Shah Abbas Hotel still operating? </p>
<p>Wonderful country, Iran (or Persia, as I prefer to call it), so sad about the direction it is going…</p>
<p>“I have many dear Iranian friends. None of them support your statement that Iran is a functioning democracy. How can you read books such as ‘Reading Lolita in Tehran’ and suggest such a thing?”</p>
<p>I do, too. I am aware that there have been six sets of democratic elections in Iran in the last 20 years, even when beset on all sides by foreign enemies, a U.S.-backed dictatorship than used chemical weapons in a war against them, and a U.S. government that has been trying to topple them (making use of my friends in the U.S.) for the past 25 years. The governments have varied very widely, from one that wanted to stop all foreign trade to one that was for almost full-free trade, from one quasi-socialist to one free capitalist, from one that allowed virtual full participation in the universities and the extension of education to all women, to one that almost entirely wanted to keep women at home. I don’t particularly like the current Iranian leadership, but I do know the Iranian people who elected them wanted such a government when surrounded by 200,000 aggressive, well-equipped enemy troops on all sides, and whose government calls them part of the “axis of evil” (and, as we all know, evil should be wiped out from the face of the earth.) Under similar conditions, frankly and honestly, and given from what we’ve seen in the past 5 years here, I think the U.S. under similar conditions would have far worse in the way of democratic allegiances.</p>
<p>I think Israel has every right to bomb pediatric hospitals. After all, they can, can’t they?</p>
<p>I won’t open pandora’s box of free election discussions but suffice it to say that I do not believe the “Iranian people” freely “elected such a government.” Nor do I believe a comparison to a “What if” scenario in the US is useful though I do agree the US has been trying to topple the government since it’s inception–though not with the help of any of my friends.</p>
<p>Also, mini, while I often admire your global perspective in political discussions, I don’t find your intermittent use of sarcasm (aka the driver technique) as impressive as your straight deliveries.</p>
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<p>amazing.</p>
<p>In case you haven’t noticed, they’re not the ones that have been blowing themselves up to kill innocent people (and innumerable children and teenagers) for the last 20 years. I don’t know why I’m wasting my breath. These are beliefs that are far beyond the edge of reason. I should know already from reading some of your other posts.</p>
<p>I think anyone who blanketly condemns Israel, anyone who is part of the “Israel is Always Evil” camp, has no idea whatsoever the dynamics in the middle east.</p>
<p>At such dreadful and unjust times, I am usually reminded of quite a wonderful person (funny how that works, eh?) who always spoke for justice and whose words are still resonating in the winds–of both the east and west.</p>
<p>May your wisdom open all hearts, Faiz.</p>
<p>Hum Dekhenge by Faiz Ahmed Faiz–unquestionably the greatest post-WW2 poet of India</p>
<p>We shall see
It is necessary that we shall also see
That day which has been promised
Which is written in God’s ink
We shall see </p>
<p>When the mountains of cruelty and torture
–like cotton–will be blown away
[and] Under the feet of the governed
This earth will quake
And over the head of the rulers
When lightening will thunder
We shall see </p>
<p>When from God’s House
All the idols will be lifted
We the people standing in the sanctuary
Will be elevated to a higher platform
[and] All the crowns will be tossed
All the thrones will be toppled </p>
<p>Then only God’s name will remain
Who is both absent and present
Who is both the observer and the view itself
When the anthem of truth will be raised
Who I am and you are as well
And the people of God will reign
Who I am and you are as well</p>
<p>We shall see
It is necessary that we shall also see</p>
<h2>We shall see </h2>
<p>One important note to remember. Most of the people Israel has detained on terrorism charges were found within the boundaries of Israel. Hamas and Hezbolla snuck across the border and kidnapped these soldiers, which is far from arresting them inside Gaza or Lebenon.</p>
<p>And if these soldiers were indeed shipped to Iran, what legal basis does that have? I know that evidence has supported the CIA shipping people to other countries, but that is gravley wrong as well.</p>
<p>Israel says it is “at war” in Lebanon. The mistake Irsael will likely make is to blow up a lot of things in Lebanon but not force Lebanon to enter into a formal surrender. The result will be even more people in Lebanon will support military action by terrorists against Israel. In other words the problem for Israel will continue.</p>
<p>And as to Mini’s belief of democracy in Iran, I say this. If America changed its system so that all congressional and presidential candidates had to be first approved by the Catholic church, and only those approved could campaign for office and be elected, would this be democracy? Only if you think the answer is yes could you believe Iran has democracy. In Iran, "All candidates of parliamentary or presidency elections, as well as candidates for the Assembly of Experts, have to be qualified by the Guardian Council in order to run in the election.
"<a href=“Guardian Council - Wikipedia”>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardian_Council</a></p>
<p>Did this all start with the “kidnapping” of a soldier…one person…in this recent escalation? Then Israel bombed, more “kidnappings”, and the cycle continues</p>
<p>We tried to “kidnap” people in Italy…anyone remember our CIA trying to do that? </p>
<p>Guess not</p>
<p>And does the taking of a few people justify the bombing of an entire country, cause if so, man we should be careful…our government snatches people all the time</p>
<p>Sorry mini, but Captain Obvious (that’s me) has noted a logical fallacy in the following argument:</p>
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This does not define Israel as a terrorist organization. </p>
<p>Terrorists don’t eat pork.
I don’t eat pork.
Therefore, I am a terrorist?</p>
<p>What’s that called, affirming the consequent? something like that.</p>