Issues pertinent to Muslim students

<p>so, the general consensus seems to be that the group of kids I am talking about will not be considered URM (they are mostly from the Middle East). OK. One question answered. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. It’s good to clear this one up. </p>

<p>In terms of essays, somebody already mentioned the hackneyed cross cultural issues may be a cliche, told too many times by all sorts of children of immigrant parents, and as such may not be the best essay topic unless this is really a heart felt, very very personal theme. Good to get this input also. </p>

<p>Other than general admission strategy such as issues regarding where to find schools with good fin aid, how to be careful about ED when fin aid is a key issue, etc, do you have any input/thoughts on helping these kids find a great university/college for them both in terms of gaining admission and the kind of support they will receive once they are on campus? </p>

<p>I will discuss the safeties, matches, and reaches concept and how to interpret the admission stats (like middle 50% stuff, admission rate, the significance of high school rankings). I have a list of web cites where parents and kids can go to to find all sorts of admission statistics and the list of colleges that give good merit awards. I will also advise them to work with the HS GC to check out the school profiles well in advance, and how to reach out to the regional admission officers from colleges/universities they are interested in, what kind of help is available for SAT preparation, etc. For parents with kids who are freshmen, sophomore, and juniors, I will also lead a discussion on how to build academic track record, and EC profile. </p>

<p>Is there any big ticket item I am missing/not discussing???</p>

<p>As I understand URM status, it is accorded only to groups who have been in this country for hundreds of years, deprived of economic opportunity (money, money for college, better jobs, promotions…) based on their race. Examples: African Americans; Native Americans. </p>

<p>In order to correct this situation and bring these groups, historically persecuted throughout American history, to a level of opportunity that resembles their percentage in the general population, and more importantly to install diversity on the college campus for the benefit of ALL students to experience difference among the student body, the USA recently instituted Affirmative Action to give a boost to URM’s. It is hoped (and is already starting to show) that within a generation or two of enhanced opportunities, URM’s such as AfAm’s, Inuit, Native Americans will do in one generation what others took many generations to achieve as a group: educational success, that leads to greater social mobility and a chance to enter the midddle and upper classes of society. Now even after just one generation, the premise is under question because there are already children of middleclass and wealthy African American families who arguably should not be boosted by AA, but until it’s changed to something like “socioeconomic Affirmative Action without consideration of race…” this is where we stand in America today.</p>

<p>Concerning religion, there is no more religious filter to keep Jews out of universities, although there was within the Ivy League before WWII because --through academic merit–they began to fill up so many places it upset some administrators who didn’t want a social influence of Jewish students impacting the Christian students. All this has changed. Jews never had Affirmative Action; rather the quotas against only them in several IvyLeague schools were retired following WWII. </p>

<p>Affirmative Action for the historic URM’s of the U>S> was meant to right the old wrongs until such time as there was no more need for it. Some, but not most, American might say we’ve reached the point where race is not the indicator it used to be to automatically indicate poverty, but it was certainly that way when AA began.</p>

<p>Where does that put the children of Muslim immigrant families today? Based upon race, they only qualify as URM’s if they are also African-Americans. I think (but don’t know) if they were understood to come from Kenya (for example, like Barack Obama’s dad) that they might not win over an African American Muslim born in New York City. The pressure to right the historic wrongs is more focussed on groups who were ground down by the American experience for decades and centuries (AfAm, Native American…). This might not come as welcome news to any immigrant family, but URM is to remedy long old bad American stories in history, and generate diversity to benefit the campus because ALL students’ education is enriched by the presence of minorities.</p>

<p>I think if any “angle” it would be “enriched by the presence of minorities” and might come in the form of an essay or description of an experience that demonstrates how that student’s presence on campus enhances the world knowledge of other students. A well-crafted essay, or list of extracurriculars that speaks to a student’s interest in enlightening others without overwhelming them might be positive. If a student indicated interest in becoming chair of the Muslim Student Association and the administration saw elsewhere on the application a very responsible student and school citizen, that could be a plus. If they need an oboe player in the orchestra or soccer leader on the team, that’s a plus that transcends religion or culture. They might just want the student for some specially trained skills that fit into niches the college needs to fill.</p>

<p>I would also wonder to explore with parents whether they have special needs of the college, or worries. For example, if same-sex dorming is helpful to some traditional families, then they might look for single-gender schools or coed schools that have single-sex dorm offerings. If drinking concerns a family and they are not sure how their child will deal in a community that permits it, then a look at the social life on campus (how much social activity seems to depend on drinking; do they have children who can be handle situations where friends are drinking but they might abstain. In other words, can the student maintain their religious and cultural focus for 4 years, even while meeting different people and learning other lifestyles. </p>

<p>In terms of actual practice of religion, I think you know the key elements much better than I do. Do students already have clean rooms for daytime prayer or must they find their own spaces? Can Halal food be found easily or with a challenge? Is there an Imam or mosque in the nearby community? Does the student even mind if there isn’t? Do the parents anticipate a change from traditional religious focus or is that a worry for them? </p>

<p>Most of all, is the student ready to join in a college experience where others will disagree with the politics. Finding situations where nobody will disagree with political viewpoints is rather scary and undemocratic. I wouldn’t my kid to attend a place that only reinforced the politics we believe from home. I don’t think my kid should be the ambassador for my beliefs, either; I anticipate he’ll develop his own as he moves into adulthood. I wouldn’t want him maligned, assaulted (physically or verbally), or demeaned by a professor because of how he worships God. He should be free to practice his faith untroubled (it’s his business only). You have the right to anticipate the same safety for the children you want to help. </p>

<p>If on the campus he meets others who sputter in his face “Zionists are Nazis” I expect him to contradict that using rational, calm ways of speech. I would be horrified if he sputtered into to a collegemate’s face words like this: “Islamic nations are an axis of evil.” So much for politics that comes out as diatribe. It’s a poor excuse for political debate and knowledge that enlightens.</p>

<p>I think if I were an immigrant today I would tell my personal story and how it relates to seeking educational opportunities. I’d let it be seen on the application what I have to offer in the college community, be it sports, theater, music, science pizazz, whatever makes the student stand out from the rest.</p>

<p>That is not a strategy unique to Muslim students. It’s universal. Maybe what you need to do is help the assembled families know what is more universal advice about organizing, thinking through, and writing top quality college applications with strong recommendations from their teachers. You have a lot to present and teach the group, but I don’t know of any URM strategies that will enrich their applications unless they are African American already. </p>

<p>I’m open to being corrected, especially on the accuracy (not philosophy) of how I stated the Affirmative Action angle – what it offers and doesn’t offer to a group of Muslim immigrant families today.</p>

<p>:) We cross-posted just now! Did I mention a big ticket item? I hope it helps. Sounds like you’ve got it all in hand. Be sure to recommend CC to them, too.</p>

<p>Well, as MUSLIMS they won’t be considered URM. If they’re mostly from Arab Middle Eastern countries or even if they’re from the Maghreb (Berber would be a plus), they may be considered URMs racially. But religiously, I doubt it.</p>

<p>Wow, paying3tuitions (reading your user name makes me feel less sorry for myself), I think you hit the nail on the head. What an excellent post.</p>

<p>P3T,</p>

<p>thank you. You bring very good points. I will incorporate them into my material.</p>

<p>P.S. regarding AA policy - the version practiced at work place is a bit different. The main purpose is not so much to redress the past discrimination of the group that was historically mistreated in the country, but to create a work environment where everyone’s contribution is maximized and not diminished due to bias and discrimination. As such, groups that do not have a historical claim for being discriminated are just as much a beneficiary (e.g…, workers with Asian heritage). For corporations that fight to remain hyper competitive against the competitors and desire to be “loved” by customers scattered around the world and top talents coming from a variety of regions, creating inclusive environment is a survival strategy. For instance, if finding, recruiting and promoting a qualified Asian woman to a top management position adds to the general perception of inclusiveness among the employees and customers/partners, then, it is a smart move for the company. </p>

<p>BTW: off topic, but I enthusiastically support policies that bring more diversity to the campus, and give extra points to applicants who are coming from disadvantaged background. Though this leaves my own two kids with a (terribly) short end of a stick, as a society, I think it’s a right policy.</p>

<p>haha busdriver11, two have graduated since I created that screenname, so evidently I am alive after all.</p>

<p>hyeonjlee, good news and good luck. If you wish to post after the meeting, I’d be happy to hear how it went.</p>

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<p>The original poster was asking for input on college admission strategy. You are injecting a political tone here. His/her recommendation for you to start a new thread if your input is really political in nature is right on the mark. Of course, if you have anything to say about her question on how best to help her audience, your thoughts will be as welcome as any other’s</p>

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<p>this is so uncalled for. Must you always ridicule other people’s good intention and willingness to help others? I am fairly new to college confidential, and in general impressed with the level of civil discourse among parents. I hope this kind of snide remark is an exception.</p>

<p>Although most Muslims are not URMs, I imagine Muslim applicants will nevertheless be the beneficiaries of many colleges’ desires for diversity, in the same way a Caucasian applicant from Wyoming would have an advantage over a similar applicant from New Jersey.</p>

<p>Liz, you will find, as you browse through cc that some comments will seem very snide (if they are ones you disagree with). If you agree with them, you will find them appropriate and witty. It’s just human nature, and I advise not to spend the time to be insulted. Most everyone here is well meaning, even when we disagree and even when we say things that may not come out as politically correct as others may desire.</p>

<p>"I imagine Muslim applicants will nevertheless be the beneficiaries of many colleges’ desires for diversity, in the same way a Caucasian applicant from Wyoming would have an advantage over a similar applicant from New Jersey.
Cardinal, non denominational colleges in the US do NOT base selection on religion. You are mixing up RELIGION and geographic location with RACE.</p>

<p>One thing I would mention about diversity to any applicant is that colleges not only want diversity in their student body, they also desire students who are open-minded and curious about other religions and cultures, and who will appreciate being in that environment.</p>

<p>Although not technically a URM, I think that Muslims do have an ethnic/cultural/religious advantage in admissions that very few of the students themselves are aware of. </p>

<p>Islam is a hot topic in just about every academic department: music, art, architecture, history, political science, law, literature, philosophy – go through a course catalog you will see Islamic related offerings in unexpected disciplines, not just religion.</p>

<p>In that light, colleges value kids who either are Muslim themselves or have had exposure to Islamic cultures for the personal perspectives that they bring to the classroom and the community.</p>

<p>I would like to stress that Islam does not necessarily equal Arab – or Persian – or any middle eastern ethnic group. Pakistan and Bangladesh are of course Muslim majority countries, but so are some other parts of the world that are not immediately connected to Islam. Tropical Islam is culturally very different from desert Islam and in that sense students from Malay Muslim cultures can bring a good deal of unexpected diversity to the campus community.</p>

<p>Momrath is exactly right. My son investigated a number of SLACs which emphasize internationalism and exposure to other cultures. Those schools welcome the diverse experiences that students not from the dominant American culture bring to the campus community. If the admissions committee at Macalester is deciding between yet another white kid from a Chicago suburb and a Muslim kid whose parents immigrated to the US, the Muslim kid will be getting the acceptance.</p>

<p>Moreover, right now colleges are searching high and low for students who would be the first in their family to go to college. So that would be another advantage for mantori’s Muslim families.</p>

<p>I don’t think that Muslims will be considered URMs. But there are aspects of their religion they can highlight. For example, as JHS suggested, how to reconcile their faith with a highly secular or Judeo-Christian influenced culture; the impact of Ramadan fasting on their ability to carry out their studies; gender ideology, especially as concerns women, and so forth.
I actually agree with Cardinal Fang. Colleges interpret diversity in multiple ways: ethnic, geographic, religious, academic interests.</p>

<p>OP, I admire your dedication to educating the kids/parents on college-admittance strategies, but I think YOU would be guilty of discrimination by catering exclusively to this one group. Why not open your class to any parent who is struggling with the process?</p>

<p>Let’s get all smart, hard-working kids into college regardless of their skin color or religious beliefs.</p>

<p>just saying,</p>

<p>I am an American Muslim, and I do identify with my religion. And I most ceratinly am proud of my religion.</p>

<p>But…</p>

<p>Religion is NOT the only aspect of me, or of many of the other applicants that are applying to US colleges.</p>

<p>Muslims come from far and wide, not just from the Middle East. [for example, Malaysia]</p>

<p>I really appreciate the effort you are taking to help the immigrants. But, you need to ask them what they look for in a college. Culture ties into religion alot, and different Muslims are not as devoted to the religion as others.</p>

<p>I think a religious experience could be something unique to write about in an application. But, because there are so many Muslims, I do not think that being Muslim alone is enough to write about in an application.</p>

<p>If you have any questions, don’t hesitate to ask!</p>

<p>In re: post #35!</p>

<p>Oh, come on! The OP is not an organization, a college or even a commercial enterprise. Telling the OP that what s/he is doing discriminatory is ludicrous. The OP is an individual involved in working for reconciliation in the Middle East. Which means that the OP is unlikely to come across students of Finnish or Greek origins–to take groups at random-- needing help applying to colleges. Since the object is to get students into colleges, the OP is right to ask for tips that may help these students.
Kudos to the OP for being willing to help–and not just with college applications!</p>

<p>Not a big ticket item, but worth mentioning in passing: Does the campus Imam and/or local mosque have a specific affiliation or orientation?</p>

<p>There are many varieties of Islam, and some families may prefer that their children have access to an Imam or mosque from a particular tradition, much as a Christian family may prefer that their children have access to a minister or congregation from a particular denomination.</p>

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<p>Oh, good grief. Hyeonjlee is working with a specific group and she asked how to make her seminar / workshop most relevant to that group. That’s hardly “discriminatory.”</p>

<p>I applaud Hyeonjlee’s efforts and I think it’s sad how the thread has deteriorated. </p>

<p>One thought that I have: The Union for Reform Judaism publishes a list in their magazine (which has been linked to) that lists colleges by raw #'s of Jewish students and % of student pop which is Jewish, which is often quite helpful for those students for which the issue is relevant. There must be a similar organization or magazine for Muslims? You may want to contact them - perhaps they’ve done some of the legwork and might have such a list handy, or might be willing to work with you on creating such a list? </p>

<p>Is there a national organization equivalent to Hillel for Muslim students that might have information?</p>

<p>thanks for great input from most of you.</p>

<p>Ideas forming in my head based on your input.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Perhaps it’s best that I stick to a more straight forward college admission strategy discussion. I feel awfully inadequate to address which colleges will provide better and more comfortable environment for them, etc. As someone mentioned above, I am sure the Muslim/Arab community has various web resources where they have more accurate and up to date information on such things, just like Jewish web sites with information on universities/colleges with good hilel support.</p></li>
<li><p>I hear you loud and clear: URM status does not apply here. That said, the diversity angle can still help them, just as it would help a kid from central Wyoming gain acceptance from a tippy top university over yet another applicant from NJ with comparable stats (that would be my kids :frowning: ) Perhaps discussion on how to weave that diversity angle into their application package so that it stands out and provides a differentiated value is a legit one from an admission strategy point of view.</p></li>
<li><p>Related to (2) above: the LACs angle. I suspect this community (with many recent immigrants from Middle East) is not very aware of the fine education top LACs provide. Just following some threads on this board, it’s clear that the more sophisticated the student body is in terms of college admission gaming strategies and resources available to them, the better the awareness of the top LACs and the quality education they provide. It’s amazing now, but, until I started to frequent CC, I have never heard of the likes of Ponoma, Claremont McKenna, Carleton, Williams etc, and we are talking about two Ph.D. and an MBA between H and me (well, we are in a tech field, and most of our colleagues come from the usual suspects such as MIT, CalTech, CMU plus big 10+ public schools with engineering programs). I bet the awareness of good LAC as an outstanding option for their kids in this community of my audience is not really up there. So, I will definitely add a short discussion on options regarding LAC just so that they will be aware of much greater options their children should have than they would have thought otherwise. </p></li>
</ol>

<p>Now that we are talking about LAC, and looping back to the “diversity” angle above, I would like an input from the knowledgeable CC parents on following:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Since LACs are usually much smaller, is it in general more difficult for students who don’t fit the general mold of “average” students, meaning it may be harder to find other students with similar interests and sensitivities. I have NO experience with LAC, so I have no idea.</p></li>
<li><p>Do LACs in general provide comparable level of fin aid? “Comparable” as in “compared” with the USNWR national universities with similar admitted student profiles and stats. For instance, does Amherst provide similar level aid to, say, non-HYP Ivies? Do they also seem to “encourage” students with an interesting “diversity” angle with generous fin aid?</p></li>
</ol>

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<p>I thank your input in advance. Please note that I will be leading this discussion in a local Mosque. I am soliciting your input on how to help my audience devise a good college admission strategy with the reality as it is, NOT to debate the political/ideological issues or question/validate the existing practices </p>

<p>I know that there are people who are dying to the debate political/ideological angle, but that’s not the subject matter here. </p>

<p>I am in charge of an outreach program in an interfaith dialog group. We have had hard time recruiting partners and members from the Muslim/Arab community even though the president of our group is a Palestinian (a Muslim). Jews, Christians, and atheists are coming out of the woodwork to participate in these activities, but Muslims are not (I can understand why, but again that’s a different subject matter). So, I decided to reach out to them with something of a practical value to this community as a way of introducing ourselves to them. You know, people need to get used to sharing the same space time continuum :slight_smile: before any kind of dialog can start.</p>