"it is universities themselves that have undermined the worth of the education..."

<p>“In the recent movie “The Social Network,” Mark Zuckerberg is shown devoting endless hours in his room to computer programming. He goes to a few parties, but mostly he is engaged in his new business venture, “the Facebook.” How is this possible, one might wonder? Was he flunking out of his classes? No. Thanks to the wonders of grade inflation and the lack of a serious core curriculum, it is possible to get through Harvard and a number of other high-price universities acing your computer science classes and devoting very little effort to anything else.”</p>

<p>Full article:</p>

<p>[What</a> is a college education really worth? - The Washington Post](<a href=“http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/what-is-a-college-education-really-worth/2011/06/02/AGzIO4HH_story.html]What”>http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/what-is-a-college-education-really-worth/2011/06/02/AGzIO4HH_story.html)</p>

<p>The jobs of tomorrow can’t be learned by an apprentice today, but the ability to think critically will CREATE those very jobs. Education can still feed the soul and that is what will fuel creativity, at least for some. When you look at the unemployment figures, do you notice that those who do not have a bachelor’s degree are more likely to be unemployed and to stay unemployed for a longer time? There are still universities that challenge students, and even the worst still provide students the ability to learn written communication, mathematics, higher level science, foreign language and philosophy.</p>

<p>Are they seriously going to use “The Social Network” as evidence? Maybe we just need better journalism curriculums.</p>

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<p>Correlation is not causation. Nowadays, those people who don’t graduate from college tend to be disproportionately those with poor work ethics. They are also precisely the people who tend to have difficulty finding and holding a job. </p>

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<p>Actually, I would say that the author let colleges down easy by using The Social Network as an example. At least in the movie, Zuckerburg was portrayed as having some academic knowledge. {In one scene, at least he was in a class and did answer a professor’s question correctly, even as he abruptly left the room.} </p>

<p>But as we all know, there are plenty of other schools which are notorious for their social atmospheres far more so than their academics. Playboy Magazine routinely published a list of the top Party Schools in the nation, and surely we can agree that there are plenty of students at those schools and others who are more interested in partying and dating than in their studies. All one has to do is traverse the Greek fraternity/sorority row at any reasonably sized university on any given Thursday/Friday night and you will surely find some (drunk) students who are notably uninterested in academic work and may not have been in class for many days. I think it is an entirely fair question to ask why are these people even in college at all?</p>

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<p>If this were true then why didn’t they use a non-fictional example? Do you know something about Harvard’s CS program? Does the author of this article know something they held out on saying? Please, give me actual evidence, not something you noticed in a movie or conclusions made about a list Playboy makes. </p>

<p>Are you just trying to play devil’s advocate or do you actually believe that it’s appropriate to use “The Social Network” as evidence of deteriorating educational standards?</p>

<p>He didn’t say it was appropriate to use a movie as evidence, he’s only saying that there is real evidence out there that supports the author’s arguments much better than the movie does. Of course you didn’t address the more critical issue of reality, so you’re just being pedantic and a distraction.</p>

<p>Anyway, that post is a bit overboard. College is pretty tough for a lot of people, but it’s not really about excelling for most people because that just doesn’t matter to them. A regular frat boy who majors in business will get by okay with a decent average because business is easy and applicable in the real world. For smarter students, that is neither interesting nor worth their time.</p>

<p>Of course, I think the author also misunderstands Zuckerburg’s interests; he’s obviously seen a chance to do something big, and if it doesn’t pan out, he’s still at Harvard. If it does pan out… well, you’re a billionaire. It’s probably not because he was so damn bored and that Harvard just wasn’t challenging him… come on, be serious.</p>

<p>I don’t think colleges are to blame for the undermining of education, at least not exclusively. The college education is valuable, in many of our minds, not for the actual deed of being educated, but moreso for a means to get ahead because that’s what society tells us is the most important thing. If someone finds a way other than college to attain the “American dream”, Zuckerberg’s facebook for an example, isn’t this new avenue just as valuable as a college education in today’s society, if not more?</p>

<p>We live in a world driven by individual success, where success is oftentimes defined by monetary gain. It’s fine to learn for the sake of learning, but we obviously don’t need college for that, so there are apparently other factors that make the college experience worthwhile.</p>

<p>This is a very poor article, imo.</p>

<p>What the author wrote about Zuckerberg was not well-thought. She seems unaware that you have to spend a lot of time programming just to learn it, and even more to create a functioning networking site. Did she know that he has been programming since well before college, making him skilled in the subject? Perhaps this has something to do with the fact that he did well in his CS classes.</p>

<p>She asks, “Why pay to be at Harvard if [spending time in your dorm programming is] what you’re going to do?” He’s applying what he has learned to the world even before graduation. Isn’t that what college is about? </p>

<p>Lastly, she thinks the time he spent was a waste of time. Perhaps college was at least partially a waste, considering that he dropped out. But all the hours he spent programming did yield results.</p>

<p>hadsed - your comment was unnecessary. </p>

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<p>It is worth noting that at what Business Week calls the [top</a> undergraduate business schools](<a href=“http://images.businessweek.com/slideshows/20110227/best-undergraduate-business-schools-2011/]top”>http://images.businessweek.com/slideshows/20110227/best-undergraduate-business-schools-2011/), the listed amount of time spent by students outside of class is typically around 15 hours per week (some more, some less).</p>

<p>If a typical course load of 15 credits per term includes 15 hours per week of class time, the total amount of time spent on course work is about 30 hours per week – even though a credit is supposed to correspond to 3 hours per week, or 45 hours per week of time spend on course work.</p>

<p>Of course, whether this applies to other majors or other schools is a different question.</p>

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<p>Exactly.</p>

<p>What we would like to know is what college did for those who went to college. Since by definition, we do not observe the counterfactual “how a college graduate would have been employed if he had not attended college,” we’re inclined to compare employment status by college graduate status. But that likely does not tell us what we want to know, for it includes a selection bias term. (sakky probably knows that I based that on Angrist and Pischke.)</p>

<p>I have two kids who went to a very rigorous private school. They walked out with 9 AP courses with scores of 4 and above. The one kid only took 2 academic courses in college since he was a BFA candidate and met all of the university requirements with his AP courses and some classes he took over the summer at a local college. He is as well educated or more than many if not most college kids who got BA/BS degrees and took academics for all 4 years. </p>

<p>So are many kids who go to the most selective colleges. I can see why there is grade inflation at those schools. If you have most of your students who already have a strong core knowledge of college level courses, and you are offering those same core courses with the same standards as most colleges for the sake of consistency, you are going to have grade inflation, and by definition those kids are going to do extremely well at those courses.</p>

<p>Zuckerburg was a top performing student at a top school district. No surprise that he would do just fine in college. Had he majored in some discipline that required extensive study of some discipline not covered in high school, that would be a different story. There is a very good reason why certain majors have a high drop out rate. But a kid who gets accepted to Harvard, or any college for that matter and is a top student taking rigorous high school courses is usually going to do just fine in his classes.</p>

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<p>He’ll get by OK because of his connections, not because business is “easy.” Networking matters and perhaps especially so for business majors. Employers didn’t seem to care that I had a 4.0 GPA. To be clear, I was not expecting a job because of my GPA, but I was expecting more than two interviews. By contrast, I saw many other students with GPAs far lower who easily obtained internships and jobs through their Greek connections.</p>

<p>To complete my anecdote, I should mention that I am not averse to networking. When I applied to grad schools, I also applied for jobs as a Plan B in case I received no acceptances. I “name dropped” one of my professors in my cover e-mail, and I got a phone interview shortly afterward. I don’t know if it was because of that, but the interviewer did mention the professor’s name during our conversation. Moreover, even if employers didn’t care about my GPA, the grad schools I applied to did.</p>

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<p>Programming is an integral component of any CS curriculum, but programming is not CS. Several of my high school classmates mistakenly thought that and were forced to switch majors when they found that CS really is a branch of mathematics. Their coding was fine, but they couldn’t survive the basic math courses.</p>

<p>Of course that was not a problem for Zuckerberg. Zuckerberg may have had to go to Harvard to be successful, but I question whether the Harvard CS Department had anything to do with it.</p>

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<p>Even if you saw no other value in a college education, that by itself is a pretty good reason for getting a degree - to signal to prospective employers that you are not part of the poor work ethic crowd. </p>

<p>A college degree, however grade-inflated it may be or however irrelevant the major, is documented evidence that the person can at least show up, follow directions, and put in a sustained effort over a long period of time - all of which are valuable work traits.</p>

<p>I think the article itself is designed to sell newspapers, it feeds into the hype in every generation about how everything is going to hell in a handbasket, the youth are illiterate morons compared to the older generations, and so forth. I am sure (in fact I know) that when Eliot at Harvard switched the curriculum from ‘the classics’ like learning ancient Greek, Latin and Hebrew in the 1870’s that traditionalists yelled he was ruining college (which was, after all, a finishing school for ‘gentlemen’). After the second world war, thanks to the GI bill, which swelled the ranks of college graduates, people were yelling college was ruined, that it was turned into glorified high school, etcd…</p>

<p>Then, of course, we have the conservative voices yelling that thanks to the 60’s, colleges became this recruiting house for the devil or the democratic party, how liberals “took over” and so forth, and ‘ruined it’ . Yeah, I am aware of grade inflation and all the rest, but want to know something else? I suspect this is nothing new, but status quo is boring. Older generations told my generation (now well into middle age) we had it easy compared to them, how they really hit the books, etc, yet I would be willing to bet that if you studied the numbers, you would see the same thing. Grade inflation? The ivies had what were called ‘gentleman C’s’, and as far as I can tell they still do, for the legacies who couldn’t be bothered to learn. When went to school, at a top school, we had kids who were 4.0 grinds, we also had kids who didn’t do so well, and want to know something? In the long run, it often didnt’ correlate the way you would expect, many of the 4.0’s went on to obscurity, many of the less stellar kids did well…</p>

<p>I think there are valid questions to be raised about college, about what its purpose really is. Is it simply a hashmark, as it is in places like China and Japan, where the important thing is to get into the top level school, then after that it doesn’t matter, the name takes you where you want to go? Is it a place to conform to a system, spit back what profesors want, get a high gpa, and hopefully come out prepared to do something? Is it a place to try and open up minds to what is out there, what is possible or new, or is it to factory produce workers who can juggle a spreadsheet? Does it produce people who can deal with change, understand what is going on, are curious about what is going on, or is it simply a way to get your ticket punched for doing ‘the right things’?</p>

<p>Using Zuckerberg seems to imply that college is about following the rules, about doing things the same way others do, that the learning is all about getting good grades, get the ticket punched and work for Goldman sachs or whatever, and while that may be part of the picture, is that what college about? Or is it about a total experience that takes a kid, usually at 18, who doesn’t know a lot and leave them, at 22, realizing what they don’t know and eager to learn it, with the tools to do that? Anyone who thinks college fills you full of all the knowledge you need is kind of mythologizing it, when I came out with a CS degree and started working, I realized how little I knew of what/how systems and such are used, I knew enough to stand in front of a keyboard and act like I knew:). </p>

<p>I think the whole argument is bogus because it is focusing on college as some sort of machine, where the rules are rigid, rather then being an environment that drives ideas. Bill Gates went to Harvard, came in contact with Paul Allen as a like mind, they had access to good computer facilities, and Gates dropped out to found microsoft when he felt the pull. Zuckerberg by being at Harvard, was in an environment that allowed him to be around others with ideas (he didn’t think of facebook by himself, the real ‘facebook’ existed much as visicalc came from real paper spreadsheets) and found something different. The kids at MIT in the 60’s, who helped revolutionize computing (no, folks, IBM rarely revolutionized anything), and many of them never went to class, they spent 20 hours a day in the computer center, at least one of which ended up as an MIT professor without a degree. The fact that they were put around the best and brightest, and had the opportunity to use facilities and such, created a revolution, even though they didn’t care about their GPA or whatever…want to call them losers, or MIT was brain dead for allowing this? (I highly recommend Steven Levy’s book “Hackers”, fascinating look at a world almost 50 years ago). </p>

<p>I don’t think universities have undermined the worth, I think that we are looking at colleges as some sort of diploma mill to get that great job, rather then what it should be, a place to open up kids to a world they haven’t seen, it isn’t supposed to be a training institute (for programming, you could go to ITT tech or whatever they call it), it is supposed to be about learning to learn and also to spur kids forward.</p>

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<p>It’s funny. The bible of graduate microeconomics, Mas-Colell, Whinston, and Green, introduces Michael Spence’s signaling model by assuming that education does nothing for a worker’s productivity. They did so to simplify the model (and give the reader an exercise in which education improves productivity), but I doubt they considered the possibility that their simplification may have better reflected reality!</p>

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<p>Gosh, shouldn’t those all have been learned from K-12?</p>

<p>I want to clarify that I am not disagreeing with you that a bachelor’s degree is a signal. I’m expressing my doubts as to whether we should it see it as one.</p>

<p>College is what you make of it. I know plenty of kids who attend colleges and spend a fair amount of time studying because they are interested in learning and not just being there to party. They are disproportionately STEM students. Besides who knows if Zuckerberg went to class, or not, based upon scenes in a MOVIE?</p>

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<p>I think Riley expressed your sentiments from the other end of the spectrum by calling it “a way to babysit 18-year-olds.” In my experience (i.e. anecdotal and non-scientific), I know several of my friends and acquaintances did not seem to mature at all throughout their four years in college. They were bad with deadlines when they were eighteen, and they remained bad with deadlines at twenty-two, except the deadlines at twenty-two mattered more as failing to meet them meant graduating without job offers or grad school acceptances.</p>

<p>Put simply, I don’t think everyone is ready at eighteen to attend college. It should not be the “default” activity after graduating from high school, which was one of Thiel’s points. Unfortunately, it is.</p>