And those that attend those types of schools miss out on certain things flagships have to offer. Isn’t that how life works? You make choices, right? We can’t all do everything - and that is a great thing.
I also think it’s important to recognize that some students can’t handle certain environments. They need to go where they can thrive.
When you attend the best of the UGs and the grad schools in STEM, you can realize that while you are smart, there are those in the cloud. This goes back to Web’s example, of the hard working student versus the kid who was so gifted, it came naturally to him/her. While it hurts the ego, one knows the being in academia is out.
My sons friend from HS was one of these stars. He went to UG on total financial aid, and then to grad school. He will,probably end up in a think tank. He had too,little money to afford housing near his grad school, so,lived in his office for a few years. He is that smart and that special. Son has met the stars in UG and also in Grad school. They are few but humble the others.
@lmao2018 Need is based on a formula created by the school. It contains an expected parental contribution and a student contribution. Just bc a school comes up with a $$ amt that they expect parents to be able to pay does not mean that parents can. Avg student debt does not show real individual family college debt bc it excludes parents. When you are looking at avgs, especially at schools where large numbers are wealthy (look up the stats for students in the top 1%), student debt which maxes out at $5500-$7500/yr will be lower than that $27000 bc it is diluted by students that don’t need loans.
Fwiw, I never compared a community college to Harvard. I wouldn’t bc I do not disagree that the level of education provided is different, especially at such extremes. What I did say, and what I do believe to be true, is that the degree of focus on elite schools mattering as is being argued in this thread is skewed and far from being the only truth in terms of outcomes. State flagships and many other state Us can and do lead to students having similar employment and grad school opportunities as students attending elite schools. There are a lot of fabulous opportunities available to students on campuses outside of the elite.
In terms of the entire finance/banking discussion, I don’t have kids that are at all interested and it is not a conversation I care about. Where the finance/banking discussion comes into play from my perspective is that any time this type of discussion comes up, that is used as an example and then used to project across all disciplines. It is like all college outcomes circle back around to the employment practices of those employers hiring students pursuing finance/banking. That is a leap.
Here let me solve this. (insert appropriate pronouns and such below)
To Parents of Ivy Elite Students/Ivy Elite Students & Graduates: Wow, kudos, you must be very smart! You are truly outstanding and the fact that you are attending an elite school is clearly a reflection of your superior intellect, work ethic and decision making prowess. Your family choose wisely when deciding to send you to your ivy elite school. Your parents must be very proud and the fact that Ivy Elite School choose you must surely be a reflection of their outstanding parenting. Your future will undoubtedly be better because you are privy to that level of elite educational opportunities.
To Parents of the rest of the college population/Students & Graduates of the 3000 other non elite schools: Wow, kudos, you must be very smart! You are outstanding. The fact that you are part of the 65% of students who attend college after HS graduation is clearly a reflection of your intellect and work ethic. Your future will surely be better because you are attending college. You made a sound decision. Your family choose wisely when selecting your school. That must be a reflection of your incredibly savvy and supportive parents. It doesn’t matter that you are not at Ivy Elite School, you will have just as many outstanding opportunities ahead of you because you know how to evaluate all your options and maximize your potential. You probably saved a few bucks in the process too, huh?!
In the end, the only people who really care where you attend college are; you, because you have to graduate and secure a job (which, let’s face it, most colleges give you the framework to accomplish); your parents, because they like a good brag moment and want you off of their payroll at some point (sooner rather than later); and maybe your great aunt Ethel, because she thinks you are awesome no matter what (afterall, she was happy when you smeared chocolate cake all over your face at your first birthday party). As Tim Gunn says “Make it work”!
PS. There will always be someone, stronger, smarter, prettier, wealthier than you.
@Mom2aphysicsgeek The list I posted shows average of students that have any debt. Thus 18% of Princeton students have to take out debt, and the average amount of debt is just under $9,000. The number isn’t diluted by the 82% that are completely covered. At top schools the expected contribution is low, which is what makes the number who take any debt and the amount of debt they take so low. The number of wealthy families does lower the number who need debt, but that would be difficult to adjust for. Regardless, not many people at Ivy League schools seem to be causing a lot of hurt on their families. But back to the original point, what is wrong with the ECF formula employed by top schools such that it overestimates what you can reasonably contribute? My understanding (and the article I posted last time) is that the top Universities are generally quite accommodating - but they do expect some level of sacrifice.
I’m asking honestly, sorry if this came off as condescending at all.
@lmao2018 It is really not at all relevant to the conversation bc our family circumstances are ours. Plenty of other families have their own reasons for not being able to afford their parental contribution. But to satisfy your curiosity, we have a very large family, 8 kids, spread out over more than 20 yrs (meaning kids not really overlapping in college, so therefore no drop in EFC most yrs.) Our EFC across all of our children x 8 x4 equals an exorbitant amt. No, elite schools are not affordable. We have a great income, but not enough to spend that amt every yr from 2007-2032, the yrs spanning their non-stop college attendance.
@lmao2018 Please do get out of the CC bubble. Many families cannot afford their EFC at even the most generous schools. Those schools aren’t going to say, it’s ok that you can’t afford your EFC, here’s more money. Many families are taking out loans to send their kids to college, including elite schools. Those families take out HELOCs, Parent Plus loans, and private loans. Those loans aren’t reflected in the stats you are relying on.
@itsgettingreal17 Why does no ever use any type of data or studies to support their claims? Again, the best proxy for the required parental debt seems to be the student debt, and it’s generally lower at top schools. I’m not saying it’s perfect, it’s probably quite flawed, but neither you nor anyone else has provided any real reason to believe that students at top schools are hurting their families financially. Furthermore, statistics do seem to
show that Ivy Legaue students earn significantly more, so paying back smaller loans is more feasible.
I get that in certain cases the EFC is off, as it likely was for a family that is so large. But for most families it seems to be calibrated correctly.
Who stated that students at top schools are hurting their families financially?
The argument being made by many people is that the financial aid at top schools is not generous enough, thus families are sacrificing a lot to have their kids attend when there are potentially cheaper alternatives.
@gallentjill In post 290 it was stated “there is a sizeable percentage of families going into heavy debt to afford these schools” No evidence really shows that to be true.
@lmao2018 I understand. I believe a family can take on debt without necessarily harming themselves financially. It depends so much on each family’s circumstances. A high income family may not be able to pay for college out of current income, but servicing the debt may not be burdensome. I can imagine several scenario’s where that would be the case. Personally, I don’t think anyone “needs” to go to an elite school. But I can see many reasons why I would stretch a bit to make it happen. I would not endanger myself or my future or the prospects of my other kids, but stretch a little…sure.
@gallentjill I agree fully.
@lmao2018 Here is one article (from 2016) that talks a bit about the debt issue for parents and students…
https://www.forbes.com/sites/kateashford/2016/12/29/college-debt/2/#3664bc0b2e16
“As college costs have increased, so has usage of parent loans. Students are three times as likely to get Federal Parent PLUS loans at colleges that cost $25,000 or more as compared with lower-cost colleges (18.8% vs. 6.0%). And students are twice as likely to get Federal Parent PLUS loans at private non-profit colleges than at public or private for-profit colleges (17% vs. 6.9% vs. 8.5%).”
“It is surprising that parents have a similar amount of loan debt for their children as students themselves have, considering that most of the conversation surrounding the student loan debt crisis has focused almost exclusively on young adults with loan debt,” Ailshire says. “We clearly need to include parents in these conversations as well."
Here is another (2015 - charts )…
http://www.thecollegesolution.com/how-much-parents-and-students-are-borrowing-for-college/
@lastone03 thank you! That’s helpful.
Can you point me to some of those threads please? I couldn’t find those threads.
@lmao2018 You also need to keep in mind that many families like ours make the decision to attend elsewhere bc we refuse to take out loans. How do you “prove” not applying or attending elsewhere due to costs when the only way to attend would be on loans? I am unaware of data collected based on “MC students’ application practices due to parental contribution being unaffordable.” The only stats that represent students like our kids would be the data on high performing kids who are attending schools on large merit scholarships. (There is a link to an article discussing that issue somewhere in this thread.)
@illinoisx3 I just spoke to ds and asked him if I was correct when I had said no other students from Bama’s physics dept had applied to grad school this yr. He told me that I was wrong. Another student did apply and Stanford and Berkeley were amg the schools where she was accepted. I don’t think these acceptances are the anomaly many on CC believe them to be. (I hadn’t even realized that there was another upperclassman who serious about physics!)
@Mom2aphysicsgeek I will have 2 exceptional kids at public research flagship universities next year, so I do hope your samples are not anomalies. WashU and Northeastern were among their final choices, but even with merit awards it would have meant a lot of debt. They wisely chose to accept where they could attend with no student or parent debt, so perhaps we can also help with grad/med school if they go that route a few years from now.
https://grownandflown.com/stop-explaining-daughters-choice-local-state-school/
Think this is a very useful perspective…
@BrooklynRye, great piece. Thanks for sharing.