'It's a crap shoot': Father of girl who wrote scathing letter to Ivy League colleges

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<p>Because that EC doesn’t benefit others.</p>

<p>The elite colleges are not just looking for smart kids who will do well for themselves. </p>

<p>They are looking for students who will add value to their campus community. They are asking, what will this student do for us? Will she play in an orchestra? Take the helm and lead a campus organization? Fill a spot on an athletic team? </p>

<p>If the kid is going to show up on campus and spend all his time holed up in the library or studying in his dorm room – that kid represents an investment of college resources with very little return. Perhaps worthwhile if the kid is exceptionally brilliant – every college has room for a few budding Einstein’s-- but then again the exceptionally brilliant kid probably has done something to demonstrate his unique capabilities that make him stand out.</p>

<p>I’d note that the kid who garnered the comment about his lack of activities did get accepted to Berkeley. The “disdain” you noted was not a cause for rejection, at least at that school. (Of the 5 kids in the article, the only one actually turned down was the B student with the drivers license essay - obviously not a candidate for elite admissions anywhere, with or without an uninspiring essay. I’d note that given the way that UC admissions work, it’s likely that the driver’s license kid was admitted at one of the less selective campuses)</p>

<p>“Because that EC doesn’t benefit others.”</p>

<p>Well, I respectfully disagree. The kid who comes into class extremely prepared and eager to learn, who has read extensively beyond the requirements, who is eager and able to contribute to the class benefits everyone in that class. It raises the level of discourse and it engages the professor as well as the students. The kid who takes group work seriously and organizes and supports the other members of the group benefits everyone in the group and by extension everyone in the class.</p>

<p>The comment I read suggested that the kid did well because he had extra time for studying more and that commitment–I felt–was not valued.</p>

<p>“I think that deeper learning is productive in itself. A student might participate in the Intel or Siemens competition, rather than going deeper into subjects studied in high school, but there is a long way between high school course content and the frontiers of knowledge in most subjects.”</p>

<p>Yes, thank you for this. There are students who use high school classwork as a jumping off point for further study.</p>

<p>I think there are ways to demonstrate taking study beyond the limitations of a high school curriculum. Some schools ask about the books read in the past year, the essay itself allows some demonstration of knowledge and interest and there are competitions in all areas of study that can underscore the level of academic attainment. But as GMT offers, unless it’s the Siemens or Intel, I am not sure that the reaction isn’t more along the lines of most commenters here, that the extra study is not particularly impressive and maybe even a waste of time.</p>

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<p>And how does the college ad com distinguish that kid from the one who studies very hard, gets A’s in all his classes, but keeps to himself, sits quietly in the back of the classroom, and shies away from group work? </p>

<p>For elite admissions, that might come out in LOR’s, but the UC system has nothing but the student activity list and essays to rely on. So they look for clear signs of engagement. </p>

<p>Again, the kid with the adverse comment from the reader was accepted. Berkeley admissions is still very numbers based – in-state kids with high end stats always have and always well get into Berkeley in high numbers.</p>

<p>But that peek at the comments might give you a clues as to why the same kid might be turned down from Yale. The certainly was nothing in his essay (at [Who</a> Was Good Enough? - Applicant 3 | Secrets Of The Sat | FRONTLINE | PBS](<a href=“http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/sats/who/3.html]Who”>http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/sats/who/3.html)) to convey that he was the type of kid who gave back, in class or out. The essay was very “I”-centric – he talked about how much he wanted to learn, but he didn’t give the sense that he was an active participant. For example, he wrote:</p>

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<p>That gives the sense that the kid’s primary focus is on earning the grade – he is motivated to take more notes and ask the teacher for help because he wants that A, not out of a love of math or desire to share with others. So he may have good grades, but his own words suggest that he’s the type of student who will raise his hand in class and ask, “Will this be on the test?” – and won’t bother to study if the answer is no. </p>

<p>Worse, the kid was applying for an engineering program – so he’s telling the ad com that he struggles with math but is willing to work hard for an A – and yet he wants to pursue a very demanding program where strong math skills are essential. He could have strengthened his application by focusing on the joy he felt from finding a solutions to difficult problems – conveying a love of the learning process rather than the grade-- or writing more about his “CSF tutoring” EC. (CSF= California Scholarship Foundation, which is an honor society that also requires some volunteering - kids are invited if their GPA is strong enough, and they join and do the very minimal level of volunteer hours required because they think it will look good for colleges – and of course it has very little value precisely because so many kids do it.)</p>

<p>I don’t know much about Lowell High School, but given that the father of the student in question (#604) is a “Director of Molecular Biology,” I’m guessing that it is a fairly good school. The fact that the student scored a 770 on the SAT M (which most likely means that he missed a single question) indicates that he has sufficient mathematical competence for engineering, in my opinion.</p>

<p>If the college has an interview as part of the admissions process, I think that the student who is truly intellectual will stand out in the interview. Harvard professors have to come from somewhere. Harvard probably prefers that they not come from Southeast Dismal Seepage U (at least, a perusal of their web site would suggest that).</p>

<p>I agree with Bay, Hunt, QM and other posters who made similar comments. </p>

<p>If a students main EC is intellectual pursuits, it had better show in the essay or elsewhere in the application. The only other place I can think of is teacher rec. How else is an ad com member going to distinguish that person from the grind?</p>

<p>Ideally I would think there should be some other concrete evidence of intellectual pursuit, whether writing, creating, or some other type of intellectual EC. </p>

<p>Hopefully that will be enough to get the chance to dazzle in the interview.</p>

<p>QM, Lowell High is a public academic magnet with a national reputation, but the Frontline piece said that they had changed the names of the students and the schools, so we don’t know what high school the kid was from - though the reviewer labeled it as a competitive high school. In 1999 – which is the time frame of the piece – the SAT math only tested through 10th grade level math, so the math score doesn’t tell the ad com very much. The kid’s problem, from his transcript, is that he had B’s in Geometry, and in the first semester of Algebra II – and he was following a normal (not advanced) math track – that is, his track would put him into pre-calc his senior year. A stronger math student would have completed algebra in 8th grade, geometry in 9th grade, and be on track to take calc their senior year. Obviously the admissions reader would be familiar with the high school and have seen multiple apps from kids following the highest math track and earning A’s. </p>

<p>So my point is that he is presenting a fairly weak math record for his particular major – and that his essay only highlighted his math weakness. The ad com can see that he is the son of a scientist – despite the claims of his essay, the overall picture looks more like a kid who is being pushed into a STEM major by his parents, rather than a kid with a natural aptitude of interest. </p>

<p>The flip side is that if you take the SAT math score as indicative of math prowess, then you’ve got a problem with the B’s (and the kid’s rationalization). Then he’s viewed as an underachiever in the very subject that counts heavily in light of his interests. (The B’s in literature and Latin might be more easily forgiven)</p>

<p>Again, he got in. But he didn’t convey a sense of passion. He didn’t come across as the type of student who was “eager and able to contribute to the class” or “raises the level of discourse” for everyone. He comes across as an underperformer, who asked questions in class when he was confused by the material, not to challenge the teacher or move beyond what was presented to him.</p>

<p>And my point, again, is that is the type of things that ad coms look for when they review an application, and the type of conclusions they draw. Someone spent 10 minutes at most reading his application, formed an impression, and moved on.</p>

<p>I don’t know how to interpret specific elements of the records of a California student. For example, the student lists “High Honors in Golden State Exam for Geometry, Biology, and Chemistry.” Is it usual for a B student in Geometry to achieve high honors on that exam?</p>

<p>Also, I didn’t read his essay as highlighting only his math weakness. His first two paragraphs are glowing with interest in science, kindled (admittedly by his father) when he was in kindergarten or first grade. He seems like a chemist or an astronomer to me, rather than an electrical engineer, but he does seem very interested in unusual aspects of the natural world. His paragraph about his struggles in mathematics was presented as a contrast to his experiences in his other classes.</p>

<p>Admittedly, the student is not accelerated in mathematics. However, this application was made about 14 years ago. I think that the fraction of students who are ahead of the normal sequence has increased substantially in that period. I would assume that the student is on track to take AP Calculus in the senior year, rather than pre-calc, but that may reflect my ignorance of the California high schools.</p>

<p>Another element that definitely reflects my ignorance of the California high schools: Does the designation “honors” actually mean anything in mathematics? Around here, it does.</p>

<p>If the student went to a good high school in Berkeley, or if he was at Paly or Gunn, he was probably in the company of some truly exceptional mathematics students; so it’s hard for me to know how to put the math grades in context.</p>

<p>His English courses look a little unusual to me–I would not be sure how to interpret their titles.</p>

<p>Another feature of the academic record that is interesting to me is the sequence in Latin:
Latin 3 B
Latin 4 B
Latin 5 B
Latin 6 A
This is a real rarity in language classes in my experience–usually the students have more difficulty as the level gets higher.</p>

<p>Ok, I get what you are saying calmom. It sounds like this kid is a bad example to make the point I wanted. I really only looked at the comment made by the AO that I cited, to the effect that yeah, this kid did well and went to a highly regarded high school but that he seemed to do well only because he had extra time to study. Having parented one kid who never regarded extra time as time to study, I laughed a bit at that statement. I have a different kid who uses that extra time to study and expand her knowledge and I admire that aspect of her personality. </p>

<p>I do think that it’s possible to convey interests in academic areas. Letters of rec, essays, academic competitions, other published writing, etc. can underscore academic “passion.” There are colleges that, at least at one time, specifically asked students to list and discuss books they’d read over the past year.</p>

<p>Where I’m unsure is whether that interest is given much credit. I have heard again and again, from teachers, parents, and students alike, that the most successful student is the one who does just enough to get the A and then fills his time with other pursuits. I’m glad I went to school when I did when college admissions were much simpler and a lot more predictable. Yes, I was involved in my high school community but what really occupied me in those days was reading, research, writing, reading, and more reading.</p>

<p>“Because that EC doesn’t benefit others.”</p>

<p>I get the gist of what you’re saying, but I’m not sure this is actually true. A student who is outstanding at some solitary pursuit – say he’s done ten solo summits of Mt. McKinley – is still going to get huge EC points. The value of that EC is that it provides insight into the character and commitment of the student, not that the EC helps anyone else. (I’d admit him!)</p>

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<p>Yes, because this student <em>did</em> something with his knowledge of mountain climbing, that was productive by testing his resolve and courage and building his character. If instead, his EC was spending after school hours reading books about how to climb Mt. McKinley but not doing anything with that knowledge, I don’t think it would help him much if at all.</p>

<p>What if a kid’s summer project was to read all the works of, say, Charles Dickens? I guess I don’t think it would be that impressive to an adcom, because it can’t really be measured, unless you have an English prof interview him to see if he got anything out of it. It might be hard to find some way to show that kind of academic enrichment.</p>

<p>How many kids are there who are doing all kinds of academic study without any related EC–as compared to kids who do have a bunch of ECs, as well as those who study all the time because they need to in order to obtain As–or because they are required to do so by parents? I don’t think there are that many.</p>

<p>QM – the Golden State Exam was an exam that given in California high schools on a voluntary basis by schools that wanted to participate. My son who graduated in 2001 had them at his school my son got High Honors in all of them. My son was in a high school with an integrated science program, so he wasn’t taking AP’s. However, he liked the tests because they weren’t multiple-choice – apparently the science tests required doing a lab. The tests were keyed to California curriculum standards. From what I can find, at many high schools very high percentage of students received “high honors” – often 50% or more. </p>

<p>Algebra was commonly offered to 8th graders in middle school, which tested students in the spring. My son took algebra in 8th grade, went into honors geometry in 9th. (We’re in a “low wealth” district, so if this was common in our district I assume that the kids had even better options in many other districts – my son took a pre-algebra class at a summer enrichment program at a middle school in a neighboring district and was amazed at their resources.) The next course in the sequence after algebra II/trig would be either “math analysis” (you see that on one of the other transcripts) or “pre-calc”. </p>

<p>The courses in California high schools (at least in public high schools) are approved and registered with the UC system – so the ad com knows exactly what the courses and course sequences are. They have that all on file.</p>

<p>The honors designation on a course would give it a weighted value for purposes of the UC calculation. So those B’s would have a 4.0 value. But there were and are kids like my son earning straight A’s in those courses – I think my son’s UC GPA was 4.3. (There’s a limit to how many weighted grades the UC will allow in the calculation, but my son’s high school didn’t offer many APs anyway so it didn’t really impact us). FWIW, my son was accepted to Berkeley, though he didn’t attend.</p>

<p>I would interpret the rising GPA – the B’s in math and latin in 10th grade rising to A’s in junior year as a student who was slacking off earlier, then got more serious about his studies just about the time he started to think about college at the end of junior year.</p>

<p>The point is, this is not an impressive record. It’s not bad, just not particularly good. My son went to a non-competitive high school, had straight A’s in all academic subjects, and wasn’t even in the top 10% of his class. (He was done in by C’s in P.E., ignored by the colleges, but included in mix for calculating rank). There were 10 kids from my son’s small high school accepted to Berkeley (graduating class of about 130 students). So I think it’s fair to say that Berkeley admissions is used plenty of straight A transcripts. </p>

<p>However, the bottom line isn’t for us to debate that high schooler. I am trying to share with you the concerns that would be raised in the eyes of an ad com. I attended workshops in this stuff – apparently those workshops are common enough that many other CC parents have attended them (see the thread here: <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/1507588-inside-admissions-process-event-bu-last-night.html?highlight=bu+admissions[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/1507588-inside-admissions-process-event-bu-last-night.html?highlight=bu+admissions&lt;/a&gt; ) </p>

<p>The most important part of the application is probably the academic transcript. For selective admissions, the transcript needs to be both strong and consistent with stated or apparent academic goals. So the STEM kid needs to show a strong math and science record, whereas the prospective English major can afford weaker math grades (but should definitely be taking AP English Lit). </p>

<p>You guys are struggling on coming to terms with a dismissive comments made by an admission reader concerning a kid with a super high (1550) SAT, in the face of more favorable comments towards kids with very low SATs. I think that’s because of a common misunderstanding about how colleges use SAT scores. They don’t simply seek out kids with SAT’s- they use those scores to provide context to the rest of the package. (And in California at the time, the SAT I’s combined with scores from 3 SAT IIs combined with a number derived from GPA would also assign a fixed numerical weight to the application - so the higher the GPA, the more the kid could afford weak SAT scores). </p>

<p>So you are looking at it with CC eyes and I’m trying to explain to you what the Ad Com eyes see. They want to see what the student has done. They are very much aware that the standardized tests are structured to discriminate against poor kids and minorities – so the last thing they want to do in California is allow those tests to become a barrier to admission to high achievers. </p>

<p>I also think there’s a little bit of a sorting hat phenomenon going on with UC admissions. Although each campus handles its own admissions, they do so with the awareness that there is a spot in California for every single UC-eligible grad. So the comment about being “happier at UC Irvine” is a reference to the fact that a Berkeley rejection is often only a redirection of the applicant to a different campus. (If a kid is UC eligible and gets rejected from all the campuses that he applies to – there is a specific procedure to follow to come back and get an assignment – most likely to a less-popular campus such as Merced or Riverside.)</p>

<p>It would be interesting to know how things have turned out to this point for these students, if all of the admitted students went to Berkeley.</p>

<p>I don’t have the California perspective to know how the records compare with typical Berkeley student records. I have a generally high opinion of Berkeley students, and of the quality of the education there, but outside of my own field, it is a rather non-specific opinion.</p>

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I get that. :slight_smile: I, too, believe that that the 1550 SAT combined with the B’s in Geometry and Latin might suggest that the “extra time” was used playing video games. </p>

<p>I, too, parented a smart introvert who spent much of his time at home reading and/or playing video games. (Grand Theft Auto – grrrr, how I hated that game! ) </p>

<p>But neither he nor I ever made the mistake of thinking he was a future Ivy Leaguer. Maybe for a minute - his AP English teacher was lobbying hard for Brown – but once we sat down and looked at the admissions landscape it was obvious that he was a top-50 LAC kid. (He ended up slacking off and messing up at the LAC as it was. In hindsight he was a UC Santa Cruz kid, but once that door was shut it didn’t open again). </p>

<p>I also parented a daughter who was and is a much more aggressive go-getter. As a parent I can see the difference, and I can see what the ad coms see. </p>

<p>I don’t think that there’s anything wrong with setting goals high, but I think there also needs to be some objectivity and realism. </p>

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That’s great. I was a kid like that too. I set my sights on an out of state public and was very, very happy with my college choice. </p>

<p>But that daughter of mine had better life-skills than me when she was 4. Honestly – on the social end of things, I had many an “aha” moment from watching my own kid. The d. never did well on standardized tests, but I figured that she could get into any college she wanted if they did an interview. (On the other hand, I used to cringe as I was driving my son to various college interviews – the LAC’s tended to want them, but my son in high school was not the sort to volunteer much info. )</p>

<p>This isn’t a matter of rendering a personal judgment as to which is better. My personality is very much like my son’s, and I have always felt closer to him. (Love my daughter madly, but she was never home!) But I can also see why she would have been a more attractive candidate to a top school, despite significantly weaker test scores. She’s a source of energy for others around her.</p>

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<p>Since I was admittedly the kind of kid who would have put something like that together for a summer project, it kind of makes me sad that it wouldn’t be impressive! But what if it was part of an overall story? I’m thinking about a self-study that I created in high school studying the works of Moliere, Corneille and Racine – but it fit with part of an overall story about my interest in French, being an exchange student in France, winning a national award in a French contest, and so forth. Does that work if it’s part of an overall story, not just a one-off? Or would I have had to have grafted on “and then I went to the old-age home and spoke in French to those residents who knew French” or somesuch to benefit others?</p>

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That’s the type of stuff my son did. (Dostoevsky, not Dickens), I suppose that if a kid had nothing else, that could be fodder for an essay. (My son found something else. He didn’t have a lot of EC’s, but he had enough to support an essay. It’s not all that hard)… </p>

<p>Please: the point is not that these endeavors lack merit. It’s that without more, most of these kids are competing against others who have so much more.</p>

<p>My kids have a step cousin who went to Harvard. She graduated #1 in a class of about 800 students. She was athletic and involved in a way that my kids were not. She did well at Harvard and went on to a semi-successful career in finance. She’s a really smart, capable, and nice person. My kids are smart and capable, but they they are not the same as her. </p>

<p>There are many introverted kids who engage in solitary activities who will get into Harvard. But they need to find a way to present their interests in a way that will be compelling and stand out amongst all the competition. That can be difficult because there is less external validation – no way to verify whether that kid actually read Dickens or is just pulling off choice quotes from SparkNotes to drop into his college essay. If Harvard had room for every smart kid who applies then it wouldn’t be a problem. But they don’t.</p>

<p>The letter was entertaining. And accurate in many ways. Also obviously a bit skewed by anger. But accurate nonetheless.</p>

<p>Pizzagirl – yes the self-study would “work” as part of an overall story, and there don’t have to be national awards to bolster it. But the point is that for the elite colleges, there are probably other applicants with more compelling stories. </p>

<p>That’s the part that baffles me. What is so hard to grasp about the concept that even though a particular application may be very good, there are others that are better? That others are better is not a negation of the good ones – it is just the way things shake out in any contest. </p>

<p>If you are a runner and enter a race and run your personal, all time best – and other racer gets to the finish line ahead of you – you lose. It doesn’t negate your accomplishment, but the other person ran faster. Maybe you have won many other races in the past so you are thinking that your personal best is good enough – and maybe that other runner has just set a new record – it’s not a value judgement, it is simply how things shake out at competition time.</p>