It's What I've Been Doing All Along

<p>insomniatic, I also tend to be one to watch my spending and am amazed by people’s willingness to jump on the consumerist bandwagon </p>

<p>but…</p>

<p>I recently started rethinking this a bit after I lost very good friends in a car accident. They were killed, along with their 19 year old daughter - only their youngest daughter, a 17 year old, survived. After the accident we all marveled what an amazingly full life that family led, and what amazing memories the surviving daughter has. You see, this family traveled, and traveled big: Christmases with far-flung relatives (relatives would take turns hosting Xmas celebrations) summer family reunions in rented homes in Mexico or southern Europe, family travel through Asia and South America. </p>

<p>They couldn’t really afford these trips, and paid for them for years afterwards. They didn’t drive fancy cars and they didn’t buy expensive clothes. But they were willing to stretch themselves financially for EXPERIENCES, and in the meantime created very strong family bonds.
Today, their lone surviving daughter has 17 years of remarkable memories. The fact that her 19 year old sister had led such an amazingly FULL life before her untimely death is a huge source of comfort for her – and the rest of the surviving family. </p>

<p>This live-to-the-fullest approach to life has made me think. Things may be wasteful. But experiences… maybe they’re are worth pushing yourself financially for (within reason, of course.) In the end, they are what matters in life – and for your surviving family – after your death.</p>

<p>The fact is that lots of people spend above their means, while other people find themselves in financial difficulty because of factors they can’t control. The lesson is to keep you spending within your means AND save for a rainy day. That can be pretty tough.</p>

<p>All of you who have learned to live within your means have my admiration. I am trying to teach that to my two older boys, with three more to go. I’m afraid that in many ways we have not been the best example, though we try. The difficulty for us is keeping it up.</p>

<p>originaloog - got any investment tips? You’ve done really well.
I was raised in a frugal household and kept my frugal habits even as our income rose. I passed these habits on to my husband too…although it wasn’t that easy.<br>
We also have a hard time with finding healthy food at cheap prices. Trader Joes is pretty good…the prices there are much better than at Whole Foods.
I used to cut coupons…but stopped because I really wouldn’t buy most of the products on my own. Lots of processed stuff, can soups and the like. No thanks…</p>

<p>I believe in living within your means, too. And I do see waste here and there in America. And I don’t judge myself “better” because I pay off my credit card every month.</p>

<p>But I resent the OP’s tone and claim that “most Americans” live or go into debt to fuel extravagant life styles. MOST americans DON"T. You are falling into a media trap, and are judging without facts.</p>

<p>Yes, some people live beyond their means. Some people are getting forclosed on due to consumer debt that they didn’t need… but it IS NOT most. So back off or put up your statistics. I’ll have mine ready to counter if you actually find any.</p>

<p>And IMHO “Judge not, least you are also judged.” might be something to keep in mind.</p>

<p>cptofthehouse, this is what we have tried to teach our boys as well. They do see a difference between how we watch our pennies and some other people in their lives who do not. They used to be jealous, but they are now old enough to see the consequences of people who spend spend spend as though they are wealthy, and have an upper middle class income. They are no longer jealous, but are amazed at the irresponsible behavior of some people.</p>

<p>whatapain, I agree with everything you have said, and you have pointed out the problems we have today, and have had for years. All it takes is one major illness and the deck of cards can come crashing down, even with savings. For some things, one just can’t save enough if living the middle class life style.</p>

<p>We had a thread about this topic a year or more ago. I am much like you, OP- I love finding deals and bargains, and I don’t spend more than I can afford to. There are coupons for way, WAY more things than just food. Between coupons and sales and on-line deals, you can get a lot for your hard earned dollar.
Sometimes I feel like the pig in “The 3 little Pigs” who built his house out of brick. I do truly feel badly for the ones who built theirs out of straw and sticks, but that said, I feel less bad for those who spent foolishly, with little consideration for the possible economic downturns that can, and typically do, happen.</p>

<p>I do feel badly for those who do not take care of their budgets. The consequences can be terrible. It also makes it harder for all of us as the immediate rewards of overspending are tempting to all of us (well, to many of us, anyways). I would love to have my neighbor’s wonderful van, her gorgeous landscaping, her wonderful vacations. It’s hard plod along when, yes, we could probably come up with some of that “good life” if we spent that way, but it would ruin the things we have put in a higher priority. But there is not that immediate joy in working towards goals that do not have the great moments of enjoyment but just a slight increase and stability. Trying to teach this to kids who are so immediate is especially difficult when they are around others who are so enjoying the fun things of life and not watching the credit card balances and have little responsibility to pay for what they are getting. There is a part of me that would love to give those things to my kids too, as we did indulge a lot on things they enjoyed and wanted as kids. As they grow up, we realized that not getting everything and anything can teach more important things.</p>

<p>Whatapainthisis: I think you are already doing all you can. My point was that life can be difficult to get ahead if you are a regular wage earner. </p>

<p>We are comfortable today because we had more luck than you or someone like you do and we are probably older an have more time to accumulate wealth. I never forget that. </p>

<p>When we started we are lucky to be healthy. We are lucky because our parents who lived through extremely hard times - war & famine, prejudice/lack of oportunities and lack of education, knew how to save (think depression style living) and left us an inheritance and was supportive (to graduate degrees) in every way. </p>

<p>Like cptofthehouse, I worry that my children does not have the same drive, work ethics, and spending habits as we do, but that is the story for another day. </p>

<p>Re expensive organic fruits and vegetables - I have recently started planting my own. Not much success without pesticides yet - those insects are brutal to my plants. But tomatoes, zucchinis, peppers and some other vegetables are very easy to grow. I have learned sweet potatoes are low glycemic and full of vitamins and also extremely easy to grow. Mom told me when there was famine that’s what she ate, the family planted sweet potatoes and survived. I have two grape plants which gives me barrelfuls of grapes - except in the last two years a raccoon family discovered them and I now have the fattest/biggest raccoon I have ever seen in my life - they are bigger than a big tom cat. I haven’t figured out what to do about them yet, but all I get are pitiful looking half eaten grapes now. </p>

<p>I am beginning to turn vegetarian, and I also find my food bill decreased as a result. This is merely an observation, not suggesting anyone else do the same. I do it for health and personal belief reasons.</p>

<p>Munch, veggies are very, very expensive here, and gardening does not go well. I always gardened and the yield is the absolute worst here. I ended up buying frozen veggies just yesterday, after pricing the fresh. I think the meat was cheaper. Good bread is also very expensive. Poster who was saying that getting the basic unprocessed foods is expensive and does not have much in the way of discounts is right.</p>

<p>For non-organic vegs, I find the Asian groceries stores have very good prices, esp. if one like Chinese vegs. </p>

<p>I am not particular about bread and I don’t eat much carbs any more, but I used to bake my own from scratch and by hand, it’s very easy, flour is cheap and I buy a few bread molds and bake 4/5 loaves at a time to save electricity. Bread can be freezed. I do the same for muffins. Anyway, not saying anyone should do what I do, or it’s practical in their lives. Just sharing an idea.</p>

<p>toneranger-
Sadly, the stock market hasn’t been too kind to folks lately. These are tough times for all. That said, I am like cptofthehouse, trying to instill fiscal responsibility into my kids. One gets it-- one still is a work in progress.</p>

<p>I recently read a book by Donald Trump that talked about how he suffered a horrendous financial setback, something like $3 million or billion dollars in debt, owed everyone, and how he walked past a homeless person and thought “That person is worth $3 million more than me right now”. That’s very funny, but here’s the thing-- Donald Trump’s parents are extremely wealthy and love their children. Donald was sent to a very expensive college, left with no debt, and went into real estate, like his father, with all of the connections that go along with it. So even if the Donald lost $3 billion dollars in his business and could not get a job, Donald would never, ever starve or be homeless because he’s got his family and his family has money that they will share. </p>

<p>My family is in debt. So in theory, my family probably “has no right” to take our 2 camping trips to state parks that we take each year. These 2 trips probably cost us between $800-1500 per year, depending on the price of gas and the location.</p>

<p>But let me share another perspective. Because of my terrible childhood circumstances, I did not have proper guidance and support, and so I did not go about things the right way when I left my parents home at age 17. I was a 3.35 an hour cashier with no medical, living in a dump without even a phone, heat, a stove, fridge, or bed. I was lonely and felt like garbage, and so when a young man told me that he loved me, I grabbed onto that. I had a child at 20 out-of-wedlock with an abusive person. I was well on my way to following in the footsteps of every woman in the family before me (poverty and abuse), but I turned things around. I booted the abuser and enrolled in college with my 10 month old baby at community college. 2 years later, I had 5 scholarships to a university. 2 years later, I had more scholarships to grad school, and I could breath a little because my child was eligible for public education. </p>

<p>Even though I was on scholarship for tuition, I had to live on student loans those years to pay for rent, utilities, childcare, and food. This translated into huge debt when I graduated, but I didn’t worry much, I figured that I could work it off.</p>

<p>So when I graduated from college, I got engaged to my now husband, and planned to go to work. Because of my high blood pressure and allergies, traditional birth control would not work and the gyno would not give me an IUD. My gyno told me that I might (I emphasize might) need a fertility drug to get pregnant anyhow due to PCOS. My now husband took this to mean that he didn’t have to pull out any more (dumb assumption, I laid there in shock after he did this), and of course I got knocked me up from that session. </p>

<p>We didn’t have a honeymoon, but we had a nice wedding that we paid for ourselves.</p>

<p>So when it came time for me to take my licensing exams, I had just had a c-section 2 weeks before and was breastfeeding a 2 week old baby. I failed the exams, which compromised my ability to earn that year. I also started a business to make ends meet. </p>

<p>So when boards came around the next year, I told my family that there’d be no summer for me with them, I’d be studying. And after I passed my boards, I told my family that I didn’t have time because I was running a business with a baby still hanging off of my boob with no staff. When my husband complained that I didn’t come to bed with him, it was because I had to work late hours, and didn’t he appreciate that I care for the baby and work? </p>

<p>And what really hurts is remembering my 9 year old girl saying “Mom, wouldn’t you go to the mall with me”? and me telling her that I didn’t have time. Or that she had me for 8 years until her brother came along and how she kind of just fell by the wayside, quietly, while I wrapped myself up with her brother’s and my business’ needs. </p>

<p>I used to justify my lack of sleep, lack of time by saying “Things will get better when we have more time and money. This is how it is when you are young”. However, I counted on time.</p>

<p>Then in 2003 my husband got cancer. My husband was the breadwinner with good credit, insurance, and the steady paycheck. I found myself faced with the prospect that I could be left alone with my “failing to thrive” 3 year old who couldn’t stay in daycare, a 12 year old, no staff and no steady income from self-employment. </p>

<p>I had achieved a lot despite really bad odds, and I had faith in my intelligence and perseverance. But I realized that maybe when the money came, the people that I loved would be gone. My husband would die, and my kids would be grown. Can anyone imagine what that felt like, to have a crappy childhood, to have a kid with an abusive man, work hard to get through college, and then when I marry a man who actually was decent, I realize that I was now facing losing him and being a single parent again because of cancer?</p>

<p>And so do you know what I did? I stopped taking any work that I could get, and forced myself to find a niche that would enable me to continue working for myself from home. When my husband finished his treatment that March, and in July, I left the pile of bills on the table and we took our first camping trip. I didn’t give a crap at that point if we lost our house, car, or anything else. My sister actually called me before the trip to say “I take it that you will not be going on the trip because your van is about to be repossessed?”, and I said “No, we are going”. </p>

<p>Some people may think this was wrong. But you know what, the bills are not going to go away. My husband came from a single mother with nothing, I came from parents with nothing. When my husband was in cancer surgery, my mother watched the kids while I drove crying by myself to the hospital and sat alone in the waiting room. I am someone who needed and wanted a family to love and support me, but I’ve had nobody. Just my kids, my mother, my husband, and myself. </p>

<p>5 years later, we’ve been through a plant shutdown, I’ve been through my own health scare, and now this outrageous state of economy. I’ve seen a huge slump in my work, and maybe we’ll be in dire straits at this time next year. I’ll probably be paying student loans when I die. </p>

<p>But you know what? My husband is alive. We never broke that camping trip tradition that was started in 2003 and we take 2 of them each summer now, free of work. I’ve never missed one special occasion with my kids and when someone gets sick, I am always there. They get good homecooked food. My daughter made it into a top school and is a wonderful human being. I am close to my mother. We still have our house and we managed to replace our van with a nice older model this past year. Could we lose all of this in a year? Maybe. Do I feel bad that I can’t afford to give my kids all that I want them to have, and do I feel bad that my daughter has to take out some student loans? Yes. But today we are ok, we can hope, and that’s all we can do. </p>

<p>I was thinking yesterday that it probably takes many generations to turn around poverty due to lack of education and abuse. My grandmother had a 4th grade education and lost her children to foster care due to the death of a child. Hence, my own mother lived in foster care, and was thrust out with nothing. She was vulnerable and married and had kids with no education, like many young women in the 70’s, but my father was abusive and she had to leave her marriage with nothing. Hence, I also had to leave home young after living with abuse. I also fell into the trap of seeking to feel better with a man who ended up abusive. But my mother did a few things right. She never abused me herself, she took me to the library, and she took care of my daily needs. But unlike the women before me, I am no doormat and I have the brains to turn things around. Now my daughter has grown up in a home with financial problems, again because I started with nothing, but I’ve done alot to insulate her from that while still being honest with her. I’ve apologized and told her how bad I feel for what I feel was emotional neglect of her when her brother was born. She will go to college with our love and financial help and hopefully she will have learned something from our family history and not be stupid when it comes to men (hasn’t been yet), but hopefully she will not be so tainted by the history that she becomes tightfisted and anti-children. I have hope that as the generations go on, eventually there will be someone in my line that actually can be educated without debt and have a family. This is just how it is, because I don’t play the lottery.</p>

<p>I suppose that I could have done a few things differently. I could have given my daughter up for adoption or aborted her, but that is not attractive. In fact, it was my daughter and my care of her (because I didn’t care about myself) that spurred me to educate myself. I could have not spent money on college, but I’d still be uneducated and have no hope of things getting better financially. I could have picked a “better model” in my husband, but then again, would any “decent” family want their sons to marry me, with my family history? Sad, but probably true.</p>

<p>Whatapainthisis : from reading your posts it sounds like you’ve done all you can, sure you could have made different choices, but you have done the best you can given the hand you are dealt and I admire you. </p>

<p>Like katliamom, in the last few years we have come to realize that experiences are more important than money to a point. We are a bit more relaxed about our spending now. Gone are the days when we spend Sundays shopping at the dollar store. We only buy some stuff from them now.</p>

<p>jym626: if you are a decent stock picker and investor you should still do well. The Dow has only corrected 20% from it’s peak. If one has been steadily investing and got into the market for at least 10 years, you should still be well ahead. The Euro portfolio of my portfolio is still up by a lot, the gold, natural resource part is almost at a peak. Don’t know if anyone own Rim or Apple or Monsanto shares - they more than doubled their value over the last 12 months. And these are well known, commonly traded shares, not some obscure small cap.</p>

<p>^^^ yes, yes, yes, munchkin, I know about the general trends of the market, and we will ride it out. My point was, with the market sucking wildly right now, everyone is feeling the pinch of the economic downturn.</p>

<p>I’ve been avoiding this thread but wanted to add that I just got back from the grocery store, and a real change I’ve noticed is the number of people buying generic. I have used generics for years, which is why I don’t use many coupons (generics are cheaper than name brands with coupons). </p>

<p>Anyway, two of the generic products I usually buy and never had a problem getting were sold out. Yes, it is the day before Fourth of July, but I wouldn’t think generic Kleenex would be a hot Indpendence Day item. :)</p>

<p>addendum–
Sadly, my FIL passed away a year ago. He was kind enough to leave some $$ to his 3 children. Sadly again, he had much of it in different bank stocks. Ouch. Its worth about 1/2 of what it was at the time of his death. My H has sold some of the dogs, but will ride out the market with a lot of the rest. In contrast, my bro in law, who has , unfortunately, never managed his finances well and never lived within his means, has been reliant on the inheritance,which he is quickly spending. My feeling is, if someone has handled their finances well but hits a tough time for any of a variety of reasons, I am happy to help them out. If, on the other hand, they consistently manage their money poorly and run through it, I am not too keen on the idea of being expected to enable that unhealthy behavior and pay for someone elses lifestyle.</p>

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<p>Are you my twin sister? My mom always tells me that she will be very rich when I die. People are not saving enough, and they are also spending more than they can afford. </p>

<p>The whole country is living on one giant credit card, and it will be a sad day when the Chinese, Saudis, Brazillians, etc send us to the collection agency.</p>

<p>And yes, munchkin, its “just a 20% correction”, but 20% of a lot of money is a lot of money!</p>

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<p>Yes, that is a bad feeling. Most of the time, hopefully it’s unrealized loss. </p>

<p>Youdon’tsay: I noticed that the last time I was in Walmart and Target. The basic things has gotten expensive. I am stocking up on detergents and toilet paper. In a jam, I even know how to make my own detergent, and leaves can double as toilet paper. Ok, don’t laugh, leaves are more environmentally friendly and free. </p>

<p>j/k.</p>