Ivies, T20s, where do I stand?

Chance Me / Match Me
1

Hi guys,

Thank you for taking the time to review this thread. I need some help to figure out if I have a shot a top schools, and to find colleges that will fit me.

STATS
SAT: 1570
Math II: 790, Chem: 800
GPA: 4.95W/3.95UW

BACKGROUND
Asian female attending a suburban public school

CLASSES
All honors freshman year
All honors + 3 APs sophomore year (5s on all 3 exams)
All honors + 4 APs junior year (current)
Will take all honors + 4APs senior year

ECs

  1. Science Olympiad: 9-12; nationally competitive, spend 15-20hrs/week, some leadership roles, no significant medals due to coronavirus cancellations
  2. Art: few regional awards, will submit (I think) quality art portfolio supplement, art editor-in-chief of art publication
  3. Environmental Club: 9-12; club officer, organize environmental initiatives within the school
  4. Volunteering: 9-12; 330+hrs at a natural history museum
  5. Lab Internship: biomedical science research, full time over 1.5 summers, not very impactful
  6. Debate: 10-11; varsity in 11th grade
    a few other insignificant clubs

Let me know if you need more information. Obviously I can’t attest to teacher rec or essay quality, but I can give a shot at estimating it if need be.

Currently I am looking/will likely apply to these schools:
Reaches:
UPenn Wharton, Columbia, Yale, Princeton, Harvard
Matches??: (what even is a match school)
Emory, WashU, Georgetown, UMich, NYU
Safeties:
Pennstate, IndianaU Bloomington, UPitt, UT Austin

I like schools in more urban environments with strong pre-med and business programs.
Thank you!

2

Your matches are reaches and your safety would only be your instate option so can’t be all of them. You need to look at overall acceptance rates and for the big public flagships, look at acceptance rates for your major and for OOS applicants.

3

imo it will probably be unlikely for you to get into any of your reaches (and top-tier schools generally) unfortunately, although you could have a shot at landing one of them if you apply to enough.

Don’t get me wrong, you have great stats and have done plenty of extracurriculars. The issue is the fact that your demographic as an Asian female from a Suburban public school makes your stats much less competetive and your extracurriculars, while impressive, are very ‘well rounded’ and don’t really make you stand out from the masses of similarly successful applicants.

I faced the same issue unfortunately, so I would encourage you to not make the same mistake as me: you should apply to as many top schools as possible trust me

4

Prestige isn’t everything. There are so many factors to a good college education and prestige is just one. @k789bh personally, I feel like applying to as many top schools as possible for the sake of the possibility of getting into a T20/Ivy is a bad decision to make. Research the college campuses, student life, etc. What do you look for in a college?

5

Thank you all for the replies.

I wasn’t aware how different OOS acceptance rates were, so thank you @momofsenior1 for pointing that out. I have no idea what a match school would be for me, though, so I’m not sure how to pick them out.

@shenanigan I’d prefer an urban school with both good pre-med and business programs (I haven’t made my mind up yet) that supports visual arts. I’m not really into Greek life or party schools. I’m not super picky on student life, as long as the college is not in the middle of nowhere.

I don’t like all the T20s (hence why I did not put them all on my list), but I am conflicted on whether applying to many is the strategic move. I definitely won’t apply to schools I wouldn’t go to if I got in, but is applying to 20+ schools really a great decision? I know it would take a lot of time, but if all 20+ of those schools are schools I’d want to go to, then would it be worth it to shoot my shot at all of them?

Besides those 14, I was also considering applying to Stanford, Brown, Vanderbilt, UCLA, UC Berkeley, Northwestern, and UChicago. While I know those are all also reaches, if I had time to, would it hurt to send in applications to those schools?

6

What state are you from?

What is your budget? Since you mentioned the word “premed”, have you budgeted for 8 years of university?

I do not think that out of state public schools are safeties, as has been pointed out above.

Out of the top schools, I think that you should try to find 3 or 4 that you like better than the rest, and have good reasons to pick these 3 or 4.

7

Although I think your overall application is pretty strong, I have to point out that your stats and ecs seem very well rounded which do not make you stand out from other applicants who may have very strong achievements that are specifically focused on a field of interest. I understand your desire to wanting to apply to 20+ top tier schools, but remember many applications are $50+ which could set you back around $1000 just to apply. Remember at the end of this, you are only going to go to 1 school
Besides this, your “match” schools (Emory, WashU, Georgetown, UMich, NYU) are very selective schools with less than a 30% acceptance rate so I would reconsider these based on your stats. Remember prestige and school names don’t necessarily correlate to how much you’ll enjoy the school. Best of luck to you!

8

It’s very hard to apply to that many schools and do it well. My D applied to 8 and had to write 19 unique essays. IMO you are better off streamlining your list and really understand why you are a good match for those schools and then articulating that in your school specific essays.

We considered reaches to be schools with under a 25-30% acceptance rate. Matches 30-55%. Safeties 60-70%+ acceptance rate and were affordable, and her stats put her above the 75th percentile.

D had 2 reaches, 4 matches, and 2 safeties. One of which was rolling admission. Took a lot of pressure off.

Look within your home state for your safeties. Usually those are your best option.

9

@typhlosion I second what momofsenior1 is saying.

10

not sure why people are giving you a hard time. you have safeties on your list, although I would not call UTexas a safety for OOS. yes your reaches are reasches but you have the stats to go for it with a few of them. ok, so some of your matches, maybe all, are reaches too. make sure you show interest- visit if possible. that a a good essay should get you into Emory and Wash U. I do agree that your top reaches are unlikely as your EC’s are good but not special-special, but you have a shot with the right essay and letters of rec.
not being into Greek life or parties, I would prob not waste your time on Vandy. And Michigan- it seems like every good student applies there whether it’s really a good fit or not.

I might add Case Western as a good match that’s urban, and BU.
Penn State doesn’t seem like it’s a good fit- too rural.
I might add Rice as a reach- geographic diversity might help you.

Remember that safeties have to be places you would be happy at, so you need to visit. Pitt is a good one for you.

11

Agree with @momofsenior1 . Admissions into highly selective schools is not a lottery with more applications = higher chances. You are a strong candidate, so shooting for some high reaches is fine. I also disagree with the views that well rounded students are at a disadvantage. Your EC’s on paper show accomplishment and active participation across varied but not totally unrelated interests.

I think the optimal strategy for you is to apply rolling to some good programs that are safety/low matches. Optimally your state flagship has an honors school or program. Start there, and maybe add another couple that are also affordable using the school’s net price calculator. Pick your top choice reach school and apply EA, SCEA or ED as allowed. Use ED if it is in fact your top choice and is affordable. Pick 2-3 reaches, 2-3 matches, maybe 1 more safety and get those apps ready to fire off after the EA/SCEA/ED decision date. In the meantime, if you get into a rolling admissions program, eliminate all schools you rank below it/them. Then depending on your EA/SCEA/ED decision outcome, either shoot higher (positive outcome, accept or defer for a school with a low deferral rate like Stanford ) or lower (reject), or just stop if you got into your top choice.

12

Thank you @BKSquared for the strategy, I’ve been having trouble coming up with my point of attack and this definitely helps.

@joecollege44 @DadTwoGirls @momofsenior1 I am in-state in PA and that is why I am applying to PennState and UPitt. I will definitely apply for their honors programs.

The issue with affordability is that my EFC is right at/around full tuition, so I will be getting an insignificant amount of aid at any private college unless if I somehow get a merit scholarship. My parents are not really factoring this in, since they only care about prestige, but right now the most affordable schools is Pennstate if I get into their honors program (honors program has a 5000/yr scholarship). I have looked into merit scholarship programs at various private universities and I might consider adding them to my list just because they offer that (and also if I’d like to go of course).

I am aware that all my “match” schools are in reality reaches, but I have no idea what a “match” school really means for me. Would UT Austin or BU be an example of a match school? @momofsenior1 mentions above the 75th percentile in terms of stats, but I qualify for that for most of my reach schools, so I’m not sure that entirely applies.

13

UT Austin takes 90% of their incoming class from instate applicants so it’s a reach for all out of state students.

Only look at the 75th percentile for your safety schools. Your match and reaches you should only look at the acceptance rate because almost all the applicants will be like you in terms of stats.

BU’s acceptance rate is 25%. I would put that in a low reach category, not a match.

Case Western would be a match for you. You would just need to demonstrate interest and let them know you are serious about them because it appears they practice yield protection. Similarly U. of Roch and IU would also be a match. You might get merit all all three.

If you need merit to make things affordable, you need to rethink all the Ivies as they only offer need based financial aid. Push your parents into have the conversation now so you have a budget.

14

OP, I feel your pain. I’ve been following College Confidential forums for about 2 years, silently learning from the regular posters, and I STILL can’t figure out how high stats/unhooked students confidently designate match/target schools. It seems to me what should be their matches are always considered reaches for everyone, since those acceptance rates tend to be around 25-30%.

I have a high school senior who applied (as you are contemplating) to too many schools. 21 to be exact. Their thinking was they could easily be rejected from all the “top” schools, and despite visits/research, they just didn’t love any of their safeties/low matches. At that point it would be about chasing merit $$, so they cast a wide net.

To answer your question, if you truly can see yourself at all these top schools and have the time to apply (meaning high-quality essays specific to each school, no form-letter plug-in-the-name essays) then no, it will not hurt your chances to shoot your shot at all of the schools on your list. Schools do not know where else you have applied, nor to how many schools.

I agree wholeheartedly about finding a rolling admission safety, and locking in that acceptance early (Sept/Oct.) Then, only apply to schools in ED/EA/RA that you would rather attend than your sure-thing.

A few points I haven’t seen mentioned:
-If you are a NMSF, you will likely receive a handful of application fee waivers. This helped us keep the application costs down a little. I probably paid for about 12 applications out of 21.

-your chances are impossible to determine here on CC. The intangibles are what really make a difference with “Average Excellent” applicants. Things like your recommendations (will your teachers write an average strong recc? Say you are the smartest student they have taught in 20 years? Spin a narrative that describes your generosity? Inquisitiveness? Self-importance?) Do your personal essays come across as authentic and portray you as a student that would fit well in their campus culture? etc.

-if you are not low income, the top schools will expect you to visit campus before applying. And if you are applying to 20+ schools, that is a A LOT of time/effort/money. However, visits are extremely helpful in determining whether you truly want to attend the school. Take notes on your visits and be able to show (through your essays, interviews) why you are a good fit specifically for that school. Of course the caveat here is Covid-19. I have no idea how schools will bend their policies for the reality that your cohort is stuck home when typically you would be able to visit campuses.

-if you are a NMSF, there are several schools that offer an automatic full-ride or close to it. These typically waive application fees for NMSF too. Lock your favorite one in as a financial safety.

In my child’s experience, with all decisions finally in hand, they would NOT have applied to 21 schools. I cannot overstate how much work it was, and how stressful 1st semester senior was, due to applications on top of a rigorous courseload and applying to science fairs, in addition to their usual extracurriculars for which they were now in leadership roles. They would have narrowed down the safety end of their college list, and kept most of the reach end. But that is easy to say now in hindsight, happy with their acceptances.

15

You might be able to qualify for merit from a school like Rhodes College. It is in Memphis, which is a vibrant city with a good arts scene. Rhodes also has business and pre-med. The college is near St Jude’s and many students end up doing community service or volunteer work there.

If you can get merit $, you can save money for medical school or for your MBA.

Gorgeous campus, too.

Professors are known for really investing in developing the potential of undergrads.

Remember that medical schools don’t care about the “prestige” of your undergraduate college. They care about your GPA and MCAT scores. Choose a school where you will thrive, shine, and stand out if you are considering medical school or law school. You’ll want to be the applicant that professors and advisors rally around when it is time to apply to grad school. That might be harder to do at your reaches?

16

Pitt and Penn State are fine schools, especially if you get into the honors programs. We can probably check the general programs off as safeties which will be affordable. Unfortunately, you will not get an honors college decision until mid Jan for Pitt and March for PSU, based on what is currently on their websites, but based on your profile, I have to think you have a good shot at both. So if you were my kid, I would start reach heavy because your fall backs are pretty good both in terms of quality and likely cost.

17

Thank you so much, everyone that has replied to this thread. What I’ve learned so far is very useful and I’ve gathered new information.

I am not NMSF (PSAT score went down from last year post-SAT studying lol) but right now, based on what you guys have said, I think what will happen is I will apply to my in-state safeties rolling (and also the honors program for each) first, to my top choice early action (or, if reasonably priced, ED), and apply to many schools with merit scholarships RD.

In terms of time/effort for each app, what I will probably do is come up with a list of apps to finish first, and if I have time left, then I can add on schools later for merit scholarships.

Based on this, I will probably also find affordable, and actually target schools to apply to. Schools that will probably have the same price range as PSU/Pitt but that I’d rather go to. I have a lot more research to do :blush:

Hopefully I can visit potential schools this summer if the COVID-19 blows over, but I have also heard that schools don’t consider if students have visited or not? When I visited Princeton they specifically said they don’t keep the list of people who visit. I’m sure there are other ways of demonstrating interest, but are visits really looked upon fondly by colleges, or is it just a great way to learn more about them?

18

^ Look at the targeted school’s common data set. They will indicate if demonstrated interest is considered.

I do think that many second tier and/or less well endowed schools may have financial difficulties this coming year. Here is an article in today’s NYT https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/15/us/coronavirus-colleges-universities-admissions.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage Just keep that in the back of your mind as you look at schools if affordability is an issue. Now is the time to sit down with your parents to work out the family budget on this.

19

Have the money talk again with your parents. This is a really hard conversation for many parents to have with their kids, especially if that hasn’t been normal all the way through.

You have a great profile, and you might be one of the students who says ‘pre-med’ going in, and is ‘med’ going out. Medical school is whackingly expensive, and although there is such a thing as scholarships, they are few and far between. I have a friend who finished paying off her college & med school loans right as her daughter started medical school.

So have the conversation: how much money is there, really? without impacting their retirement? without loans? Are they expecting to pay for medical school, or are they expecting that you will pay for that? How much of a difference will undergrad spending make?

It might be that your best long-term approach is to move your search from Ivies to places who will woo you- places where you will be a superstar and they will give you huge discounts on your tuition to encourage you to come. Or, maybe one of those colleges that have great scholarships- the Robertsons and Stamps type. Your parents might not be as impressed with the names up front, but when you can do college and grad school without debt (or not very much debt), and they are at your med school graduation, it will have been worth it. They may not realize that going to an Ivy or T-20 won’t help your med school chances.

Have the money talk.

20

I would encourage you to look at my thread from this past application season and the final match/safety designations. I was rejected from UC Davis, Caltech, and Harvard.
Safety

  • ASU
  • SJSU
    Match
  • UC Davis
  • UC Santa Barbara
    Reach
  • Cal Poly SLO
  • UTAustin
  • UIUC
  • Purdue
  • UCSD
  • UC Berkeley
  • UCLA
    High Reach
  • Cornell
  • Caltech
  • Harvard
  • Princeton
  • MIT
    Conclusion: Treat everything as a reach unless you’re 100% sure you’ll get in (safety) or 70% sure (match). Then truly fall in love with your matches and safeties.