"Ivy Entitlement" Finally Understood

"But I’d say the US holistic selection system at top schools can be perceived as closer to “which kid will be the most successful in life”. "

“Actually, ime, it starts with who’ll be most successful in this college community, not post grad. And community sucess means more than just grades, to a tippy top. It runs a gamut.”

Holistic is a term used by colleges to justify who they accept, like need-blind it should not be believed straight up. Athletes are not holistic, they do one thing really well, that’s pretty much it. They don’t participate in school clubs (if you’re a football recruit, you play spring football, in basketball, you hit the year round AAU circuit). They have decent but not great grades (enough to qualify for ncaa, which I think is 2.5 and nominal test score). Their essays and recs will be fine, nothing that will remove the athletic offer.

In college, they do the same thing, go to class (which is good!), then practice. They don’t run for student govt, organize a music event, write an article for the newspaper. Many of the athletes are housed in their own dorms. If we want to extend this for the world class violinist, we can also do that, just to convey it’s not an athlete only discussion.

Quant: I absolutely believe that the kids striving for single initial schools or MIT or Caltech are those that are the highest achieving and that those schools open doors others may not. My disagreement was that every other kid must go to a second tier school. It seems you define that very narrowly. So my question remains, what is your definition of a second tier school? If it is anything below top 20, then that is not the typical way that phrase is used.

You are also correct that in some states (Texas, Virginia, California) getting into the top State U is very difficult and requires stellar grades and test scores.

But there are millions of very successful people that did not go to single initial schools - especially those that are not striving for a job at the top Wall Street firms or a top law school. And some of those that work incredibly hard but are rejected from super elites end up doing very well in life.

But plenty of math majors do just fine at colleges where there is no equipment of Harvard Math 55. Probably also many Harvard math majors as well take math sequences other than 55 (the other ones are 21, 23, and 25).

Caltech (and Harvey Mudd) are outliers raven among super selective colleges in having a heavy dose of real analysis in frosh level “calculus” (they also expect entering frosh to have had regular calculus already).

Actually, evaluation of athletic skill often is done holistically and subjectively, particularly when athletic stats are limited and unreliable (as is common for high school athletes). Holistic evaluation of athletes can include other factors, like how well the athletes can fit with the team, or even whether they come with potentially annoying family baggage.

Well, I read Der Richter at 28, after/while learning German in Germany. Lol, who says what’s “better?” It’s not a difficult book. It’s not a measure. No badge to me, except DH got a kick out of it. My kids were impressed until they amassed their own accomplishments.

There may be colleges that are “better” in various ways. On this thread, we’re smart enough to define that past USNews. But no, not every kid will get into the college Ms X or Mr Y “thinks” they should.

Put short: you are not the decider.

And in the rational view, we don’t use exceptions to declare universals. Not in any research field. Those tippy tops took the kids they wanted, per *their * criteria. And their limits.

Multiply that one anecdote by thousands. Lots of kids don’t get their first choice or what we think is “better.” The best keep on keeping on. A great life skill.

“There may be colleges that are “better” in various ways. On this thread, we’re smart enough to define that past USNews.”

It seems to me @QuantMech is highlighting how selecting for non-academic criteria might in some cases mean kids that are academically brilliant in certain fields don’t get into the schools with the best academic resources to meet their needs (even with the necessary encouragement from parents and teachers). That’s a very specific case (and hardly relevant to most posters even on CC or to many of the issues brought up in this thread) but I can agree with the concern. Its not about whether they will do “just fine” as UCB says, but about whether they will have the opportunities to be competitive for (say) a Fields Medal.

If I had a kid who was amongst the top mathematicians in the country but was hopeless at foreign languages and writing essays etc (I don’t) I would worry about whether that kid would get into say Caltech or MIT. I wouldn’t worry about them getting into Cambridge because that’s exactly what the UK system is looking for - the top academic potential in a specific subject. In fact my college effectively advertises that kids are an auto admit if they are on the International Math Olympiad team from any country.

Of course there are plenty of US mathematicians who get the appropriate opportunities and go on to great things. 20+ years ago those kids probably would have been pulled out and sent to the “right” college. For example my neighbor’s father who is a retired math professor in his 70s told me over the holidays how his teacher pulled him aside after he won the state math championship (in the spring of his senior year) and said you’re not going to State U as you planned, phone this guy up at Harvard and he will give you a place there. I can see why that might not happen nowadays. But I expect we’ll never know if some kids miss out on their full potential, just like we’ll never know how many potential Chinese Nobel Prize winners were lost in the 20th century due to the Cultural Revolution.

Other than ballet, gymnastics and other fields where physical development really defines “peak” and then deterioration, I have a hard time accepting that taking class A a year ahead of a kid at another college is all that meaningful in the lifecycle of an adult professional. Even in math. Even in German. The expression of talent is not linear in that way.

Do I think a kid who is conservatory material should aim for a third tier college to major in music education instead of a conservatory? That’s not a talent issue- that’s a motivation issue. There are plenty of uber talented musicians who don’t “go the distance” because they burn out, decide they are interested in a different kind of life, or some psychological challenge gets in the way. And guess what- that same reasoning holds for math and physics and all these other disciplines. The kid in my son’s class who went to Case (didn’t get into MIT) prioritized his social life and his athletics during HS instead of studying. So guess what- he did his PhD at MIT instead because by the time he got to college, his priorities shifted (and he just got tired of being an athlete). How is that a bad outcome- and how is that a reflection of the opacity of the admissions process? He knew going in that kids with his GPA rarely get admitted to MIT. So he spent his $80, or whatever-- and got into a terrific place with merit money, and knocked the cover off the ball once he got there.

Having trouble with this whole opaque business. It’s only opaque if you choose to believe that the statistics don’t apply to you, don’t bother to LOOK at the statistics, or think that it’s a tragedy to get rejected from MIT or Cal Tech or Princeton and have to study engineering at one of the many other fine research universities which would be DELIGHTED to have you instead.

I believe Steven Pinker argued similarly to @QuantMech why Harvard should admit more solely on academics. It becomes a value judgement - If I remember correctly his argument was that academics should value academic achievement more.

@rickle1 Agree with most of your points save the 10K. Just because someone wrote a book (wasn’t it Gladwell) to support his thesis that people who practice the most (or greater than 10K hours) are the best doesn’t mean it is true. Doubtful that Einstein or Hawking or any other “genius” practiced longer than their peers. Many people just cannot accept that there are the bright among us who can seem the smartest person around and the brightest, who light up a generation with their ideas. Not related to practice. I can practice cello all day long and never sound like Yoyo Ma.
I do believe so many kids are working harder than ever to achieve the goal of getting in the right college ( Right for them). They just cannot fathom when the hard work does not equate with the desired result. I don’t think the process is that opaque as some have mentioned. I would say more unexpected than anything. The issue, IMO is that the message society and some parents tell their kids doesn’t match the results. Many in life don’t go to college at all and do really well. I tell the kiddoes work hard and if you fail work some more. But they see us working and sometimes things don’t go as planned so they are used to a life being filled with highs and lows. They have seen us take some majors risks. We don’t pretend its a single line sloping upward into infinity. Sometimes the speed bumps are the best. After you hit them of course.

Yup, it’s the US tippy top’s discretion, not rack and stack or (with a few exceptions,) one “ace” trumps all else. And considering the outrageous competition for a seat, we can’t declare what’s unfair or insist how “we” know what’s better. Other than personal opinion, that is.

But after a while, I personally find the insistence (across CC) on opinion to be counterproductive. It goes in circles, “But I know a guy who…and he should have gotten into…”

A bright, highly accomplished math kid who’s helpless at FL generally won’t be faulted for that. The issue is more the rounding TTs want and interpersonal skills, on top of genius or some award.

But let me get back on topic: OP wants kids to have perspective. We adults can benefit from that, too. It’s not all about this kid or that certificate or opinion.

Just as quick examples, UConn and Stony Brook University have freshman math courses that use Apostol. I’m sure you can find more at schools outside the top 30 if you took the time. As far I know, no college offers the equivalent of Harvard’s Math 55. But there are many really good mathematicians that never attended Harvard, and thus never took Math 55.

Recently, a professor in my field made a social media post about he was rejected from every single graduate school he applied to. So basically, he had to take a year off and try again. This is someone who was recently poached by MIT from Stanford. I am sure there are many more similar examples of people who got rejected from top grad schools, who in retrospect maybe should have gone.

Oxbridge isn’t perfect either. One of my friends didn’t get in, but is now in the number one grad program in his field, and is about to publish a single author paper in the top journal in his field.

Looking in the list of Fields medalists, among those with US undergraduate study, they come from places including New College of Florida, Brandeis University, Williams, College, University of Michigan, University of California at Berkeley, Brooklyn College, City College of New York, and Princeton University as well as Harvard University.

The OP spoke about participation trophies, and others about walk on varsity teams giving a false impression.
We had the opposite experience, son played on a very competitive HS team where very good players sat on the bench, since they had so many good ones. Some kids quit, some like my son kept working hard to stand out. Yes he got participation trophies in many sports when young, but he reacted as one would hope, never satisfied and always aiming higher. He did same when applying to college, and how overachieving relative to what I would have expected when he was younger, most of which I credit to sheer hard work and determination. He did get rejected by some top unis, but got into one very good school that gave him a chance, and he didn’t take admission as a participation trophy. He took it as another chance to prove he belongs on a “good team”.

I have another son who didn’t care so much about getting into a top school, got in anyway.
Barely studied for the SAT, but did well enough. Just did what he enjoyed in HS.
No entitlement, just a sense of joy, luck and opportunity. He was smart and if people recognized it fine,
If not, he wasn’t going to have that affect what he learns in college, wherever he goes to college.

I think a certain amount of this behavior is genetic, Never pushed my more competitive kid, he pushed himself.
Encourage you kids to find something they are passionate about, they will push themselves if they find
the right things for them. Some will never push themselves. And it’s not the participation trophies that caused it.

Actually, it is common for math PhD programs to require a reading knowledge of French, German, and/or Russian, due to the number of math research papers published in those languages. However, such testing is in a relatively specialized context (read a math paper in one of those languages and explain that you understand it) rather than general reading/writing/speaking/listening skill in one of those languages.

@happytimes2001, agree 10k hours won’t literally make you the best. More of a metaphor. It will make you better than you were (i.e. you’ll be the best you can be). Whether that’s good enough in the world of competition is up to the world of competition. Actually, it addresses the issue of expectations (entitlement?) Many expect certain results, whether it be Ivy league or anything. It’s one thing to be top of the food chain in your local bubble (high school) but quite different when you realize it’s a big world out there. HYPSM reject thousands of kids with perfect scores and grades each yr. Those are only two criteria. Lot of other things to consider. Too many parents saying, “If they don’t take you, who will they take?” A very “entitled” attitude.

The good news is the results in life have far more to do with the “can do” attitude than the “should be me” crowd. You can only do what you can do. if you put in the time, you’re prepared. Let the chips fall where they may and move on. Congrats or better luck next time.

As older parents, we didn’t realize how different things were today until we started to look into it.
My husband graduated from H and he didn’t know about SAT subject test. I took the ACT and the first time that I saw the test was when I was taking the ACT i.e. I didn’t study for it. Interestingly, my H was from a college educated family and he doesn’t remember studying for his standardized test either. It may be easier to find information because of the internet but on the other hand, much of the information is marketing material. Glossy materials with good-looking kids saying very similar things about their experiences.

I don’t think my D is entitled. She is a positive kid who said she will be disappointed if she doesn’t get accepted to her top choice but knows that she will be happy anywhere. D said, “I was accepted to all three of my safeties so I know that I am going to college and everything will be fine.” One of her safeties has a top 20 program in what she wishes to study.

@QuantMech:

“This is crazy, but it is actually rather difficult for an outstanding student to avoid being sucked into it, unless the student is happy going to a second-tier or below in-state public university, due to a host of complicating factors too numerous to detail here.”

I’m sorry, but while I don’t really share @blossom’s view that MUST in Rolla really isn’t that different from MIT (terrific school for engineering, BTW, but virtually unknown outside its region), it’s difficult for me to imagine that a smart top-1% percentile kid who puts in a decent amount of effort in to school work would not get in to the honors college at their in-state flagship.

"The high school work load that has been taken on makes it hard to “settle” for a safety, if a student is of Oxbridge caliber academically. The work in itself could be rewarding, absolutely, if the assignments contributed sensibly to learning. In a number of cases in the local classes, this was not true–the assigned workload often times actually hindered learning, in my view.

I may have actually used the term “entitled” to admission to a top school–in a positive sense–to describe a classmate of QMP’s, although it is more likely that I wrote that he “deserved” admission to a top school. I was not just comparing him to the local pool, although I had some years of knowledge of the local school’s students who were admitted to the top few schools. As a scientist, I have national scientific contacts. I hear about the accomplishments of a quite a number of top students from top high schools, in each year’s cohort of high school graduates. To modify the ad for Farmers Insurance, “I know a thing or two because [I’ve] seen a thing or two.” This particular student had trouble with admission to “top” schools, and in my view that really should not have happened."

So why didn’t they apply to Oxbridge?

Yes, I know I am not the decider, lookingforward, #144!

My point about Der Richter und Sein Henker was not about that specific book, but about the pace of the classes. I think you can infer the relative pace of the German classes at Harvard and at Pretty Good University fairly accurately from the information on when the book is covered at different schools that do cover it. ( I won’t even mention that the plural is not covered in first-year Russian at Pretty Good University.)

WUSTL is very highly regarded. But I don’t think its science and math courses are as fast paced as Caltech’s. They didn’t seem to think so either, in my friend’s case.

What are the odds that I know the only US student whose initial admissions outcomes were inconsistent with genuine brilliance + hard work + good personality? So, though I can offer only one instance from my own knowledge, this seems likely to be generalizable. Of course, sometimes exceedingly rare events happen, so maybe there is only this one case in all of US college admissions.

With regard to the UK, I am not claiming that it is perfect. However, admission to Oxford and Cambridge is a good deal more predictable for top academic students than it is in the US. Occasionally there are major hiccups. For example, I knew a really bright British student who had trouble with the “practical” exam at A level (qualitative inorganic analysis) and did not get into Cambridge as an undergrad as a result. But later he sailed through the academic system, and did extremely well. This kind of thing happens. Of course, there is no guarantee that he would have fared better in the US.

When I wrote about second-tier institutions earlier on, I meant sub-flagship public universities. One complicating factor locally was that an unweighted GPA of 3.7 meant that a student was in the top 40% of the class (no kidding). No weighted GPAs were computed. This made the “eh, I’ll get B’s, no problem” strategy not feasible, for a student who wanted to go to the flagship, and probably not one level below that.

Finally, I did not mean that students “deserved” to get into top schools just because of how hard they had worked in high school. I meant that when students work extraordinarily hard at difficult classes + highly competitive EC’s and cut back on sleep and socializing to do that, they are more likely to feel that their efforts “ought” to lead to “top” college admissions. This is especially true if the students are also exceptionally talented academically, and if other students from their school to whom they are reasonably comparable (if not noticeably “better”) have been successful with “top” school admissions. Around here, this is more of a factor that the “everyone gets a trophy” phenomenon, leading to over-estimation of personal excellence.

I will probably be accused of being “hierarchical” again. But from my vantage point, there are differences in intellectual capability that are quite evident in physics and math classes. Qualities such as resilience and “grit” may level a student up a little, but they don’t actually make up the difference unless it was very small to begin with. (A lot more preparation time and effort might make up the difference, but the number of people willing to start STEM grad school at 35, say, is somewhat limited.) The differences I am mentioning still exist among the students who just walk in to the SATs and walk out with all 800’s; and they do mean something for future accomplishment (in my experience). For career success in most cases, the differences are irrelevant. For career success as a theoretical physicist, they can be make or break.

Caltech is a tiny outlier, and is not representative of other super-selective schools.

Yeah, PurpleTitan #156, I think the student in question should have just applied to Oxbridge. I’d recommend it for the very talented student who is genuinely interested in academics. It takes a little adjustment for an American to convert to the British system, but it’s not that hard. And the community is fantastic for someone who is really intellectually oriented. In the past, engineering may not have been as strong in Oxford and Cambridge, due to limited financial resources for equipment. However, that may no longer be true.