"Ivy Fever" caused by Ignorance or Entitlement?

I’ve been reading posts on CC for 5 years and I am as stumped as when I first got here. So many posts in the same vein, in the same voice: The kid whose “dream school” is (suprise!) Harvard. The kid who loves Yale because it has “a great campus and great professors.” The kid with a B+ who now worries about not getting into the “Ivy League’s” [with the requisite improper apostrophe]. The kid who thinks that those 8 schools are the only option or “my life is over.”

I can’t chalk this up to popular culture because, frankly, most of the media and entertainment consumed by teenagers is profoundly anti-intellectual, even embarrassingly so. I wonder if the blind push toward elite schools, something unknown when I was in high school in the 70s, is the result of cluelessness or a general feeling among kids today that the world owes them something great. Thoughts? I work in education and this question means a great deal to me.

Two things:

  1. The Rise of the National College Student. Back in our day college was almost entirely an in-state or at most a regional thing. Kids who considered traveling clear across the country to attend college were very rare. For me Harvard was about as far away as Mars. But beginning in the 1980s and 90s with the advent of the perfect storm of USNews rankings, combined with college info freely available online, combined with the Common App and other easy online applications, suddenly it all seems so possible and so desirable.
  2. Popular culture, either subtly of not-so-subtly, often uses the Ivy League in general and Harvard in particular as shorthand for "really smart." When books or movies want to convey that characters are very smart and very capable it often makes them Harvard graduates. Two examples (both coincidentally played by Sandra Bullock): Dr. Ryan Stone in "Gravity" and Lucy Kelson in "Two Weeks Notice." Harvard = Smart is the main device that drives the entire plot of "Legally Blonde."

I’m sure there are a lot of people on here with way more insight into this than I have. However, I’ve noticed one thing. I’ve been reading the results threads for the last year and I’m blown away at what these kids are currently accomplishing. I’m seeing kids who are creating apps, interning with oncologists, taking 15 AP classes, etc. I’m drawing a blank right now, but I know you’ve seen some truly amazing kids like I have. Assuming they’re not just bulking up their resumes a lot (and I’m sure some are), I wonder how some of them fit it all in and still have 4.0 GPA’s. I think some kids are looking at their accomplishments and thinking they have a great shot at elite schools - per the OLD admission standards. Say… when their parents were in college. However, while competition has gotten tougher, admissions has evolved into something different and I don’t think a lot of kids/parents realize that yet. They see their excellent ACT/SAT scores, GPA that they worked really hard for, and EC’s and awards and think they’re a shoe in.

Why are ignorant & entitled mutually exclusive?

^^^ Good point - And thanks for the responses above, excellent insights.

"Back in our day college was almost entirely an in-state or at most a regional thing. Kids who considered traveling clear across the country to attend college were very rare. "

I think this might have differed by socioeconomic class. I was in an affluent St. Louis suburb and kids went all over the country for college.

I would love it if someone could [ quietly and invisibly] determine the national- i.e. cultural origins of the kids who post things like-
"The kid whose “dream school” is (suprise!) Harvard. The kid who loves Yale because it has “a great campus and great professors.” The kid with a B+ who now worries about not getting into the “Ivy League’s” [with the requisite improper apostrophe]. The kid who thinks that those 8 schools are the only option or “my life is over.”

I suspect that many of them are International students or children of recent immigrants.
There were FAR fewer of them applying to US colleges 20-30 years ago. I could be wrong, but I too have been here for years- over a decade in fact- and I have seen the changes in what kids post too.

I’m NOT being racist - just questioning what seems to be the “herd” mentality of so many students and parents who do NOT understand that there are Thousands of colleges here in the US to apply to- they just pick the top schools because they are well known and it is culturally expected for them to strive for and expect the best results for their efforts.

Remember when so many little Asian kids were forced to take violin or piano lessons, because some Asian students [with extraordinary musical talent] made it into the Ivys?
Suddenly, EVERY Asian kid was forced to take lessons, because a "way"had been found to game the Ivy admissions system. Until that didnt work anymore. …

What can I say? The Ivies have done a heckuva marketing job.

And from my vantage point, it seems to come mostly from ignorance. Those from international and immigrant backgrounds, yes, but also first-gen college aspirants who equate “Ivy” with “best” because those 8 schools banded together in to an athletic conference many decades ago. I consider Stanford, MIT, UChicago, Northwestern, Duke, Caltech, Georgetown, and Rice to be equal to the Ivies, but those 8 schools aren’t in any one consortium or league.

With the rise of the Ivies has also come the relative slippage of the LACs. A generation ago, some of the top LACs had lower acceptance rates than some Ivies and equivalents. That’s just not true any more.

BTW, I have to say that I was bemused to read a post on CC once by an international (I think a Brit) who got in to and attended an Ivy and became dismayed with the crowd that he ended up with (too preprofessional and not intellectual enough for him or something). He said that they were so different from kids from some other Ivies (who he held in higher regard) that he couldn’t believe that the two schools were in the same academic grouping. Evidently, he never got the message that other than being academically elite privates in the same region of the country who play sports against each other, two Ivies could be completely different in all other ways.

Speaking of helluva marketing job. :slight_smile: But you are absolutely correct, IMO

@skieurope, well, even back in the days when it had a high acceptance rate and didn’t care to play the rankings game (now, of course, they game harder than almost anyone), UChicago was churning out high-achieving alums at a rate equal to the Ivies (and of course, it always had top faculty).

@PurpleTitan Oh, I’m not disagreeing with the quality of UChicago, then or now.

I totally agree about Chicago.
DS was always 'pegged" as being the “UC” kinda student at his HS , where only the weird, nerdy, highly intelligent students who loved to learn applied to Chicago. This was only 10 years ago- before the Common app , when their acceptance rate was approx 40%.[ !!]

If only their FA package then was as good as it is now, Chicago is where he would have enrolled…

The former head of admissions at Chicago had some not too pleasant things to say about the Colleges state of admissions recently.

https://thepointmag.com/2016/examined-life/admissions-failure

Sometimes, I see both students and parents considering Harvard etal. as the gold ring. Some see attending an elite school as a means to getting a great job or high salary right out of college because they attended an Ivie or an elite lite. That belief was in a recent post by someone thinking attending one of the Ivies as giving an inside track to a job.

Perhaps it is still true that recent college graduates who seek employment in television news, for example, expect to start in NYC, LA, Washington, etc. rather then begin at a small-market station and work their way up to larger or more prestigious markets. I have seem newscasters whom I thought were really good, seem not quite so talented when guest reporting on a television show in NYC. Even Pat Sajak who was a weather reporter in Nashville is out of forecasting weather except for prize trips.

Harvard " rolls quickly off the tongue and people gasp, so there may be some advantage to “Harvard” in the same sentence as one’s name. That might last a minute or two. The potential downside is people wondering how you ever got admitted.

Some students and parents see an admit letter from one of the elite schools as external validation of their or their child’s intelligence and academic prowess. On one hand, these schools admit only a small percentage of applicants and “my” admission means I am the epitome of the epitome. Unfortunately, it seems to me that some lose sight of the huge percentage of students who were not admitted with comparable grades, scores, EC activities, etc.

Some seem to truly believe that Harvard provides a better education. This I find distressing because education is not something that someone else does to you. College is viewed almost like a paint job and Harvard uses gilt. I am amazed how many students do not realize that their education depends on personal effort rather than trying to nail down the content of an upcoming test. I found many students were concerned that they might learn something that wasn’t on the test. Kids are paying lots of money for tuition but may lack willingness to learn actively, honestly and enthusiastically. College is an opportunity to wring everything out of the curricula in four years and with little, if any, additional cost.

Two things I consider huge problems. The first is the belief only elite schools provide quality educations and life will be over if I don’t get admitted to on of these schools. This seems to me a combination of entitlement/reward with education viewed as paint. Realistically, there are thousands on incoming first-year students. many of whom would have been admitted if they chose to apply to an Ivy. Instead, they chose their school for all sorts of reasons, preferences and goals as well as lack of interest in an Ivy.

There was a recent post about what state had the worst public universities. I think that was just silly. Every state has a flagship and I would expect an excellent education from any one of them. Some also have special programs of note like Iowa and writing. Some schools like Maine are sea-grant rather than land-grant colleges which is likely to channel some of their majors. Every state, most probably, has a campus with really good academics but is also the party school. Some states are the former normal school so may have a larger presence in training people for education careers. Some very good schools have the added attraction of proximity to ski slopes in the Rockies or surfing on the ocean. Some graduates at Harvard scraped by==what to you call the poorest graduate from medical school? Doctor.

My second concern is cheating. In recent posts, two cheated and one plagiarized and all were caught by their teachers. The concern of these students was the likelihood that they would be denied admission to a good college; but none recognized their behavior as stealing, as unfair to other students who did not cheat, and as expecting to enroll in a good college even though some grades may have been inflated or the kids hadn’t acquired knowledge or skills that they would need in college.

After a post today about cheating, I looked it up on Amazon. Lo, over half of American students cheat. Over half!!! Of course it happens at Harvard. There was no sense of guilt, contrition, embarrassment, resolve not to cheat again. Just relief that teachers would not report the cheating or it would not appear on the transcript. At what point in life do students think cheating will no longer be necessary. Look at all the AP classes, some weighted GPAs calculated so the cumulative average exceeds the actual numerical limit of the grading scale and on and on. If students are so exemplary academically why do they need to cheat. If someone fancies his or herself as the best student in the room why do they cheat from others they perceive as lesser students? This seems to combine academic ego or pride with a lack of trust in their success as a learner.

@zannah, I’m of the opinion that a strong liberal arts education should be had in HS, not college. That’s when questions such as “what does a good life mean?” “what is a good person?” and topics like the human condition and our implicit assumptions (as well as societal superstructure) should be debated and examined.

  1. Nearly all students have GPAs most student's could only dream about few decades ago. The high GPAs are not a function of students being smarter or more accomplished. Rather it is attributable to a) grade inflation, b) more levels of the same class so instead of getting a B the students drop down a rigor level, c) a disabilities climate whereby those who would have struggled in the past and gotten C's now get "accomodations", d)attitudes by parents that teachers are to blame when a student gets anything but an A, and e) an absurd focus on grades over concern about mastery of material.
  2. The 'self esteem movement" gone amuck whereby students have an over inflated idea of their own abilities and achievements.
  3. A focus by a proportion of parents on creating with or for their children a childhood all about credentials for college-sometimes starting at elementary school.
  4. Re-centering of SATs so that their is a huge ceiling effect.
  5. Repeated testings and obsessive test prep and use of tutors to game tests and grades and as primary prevention for the dreaded grade below an A.

The high cost of college is a significant element driving “Ivy fever”. It’s rational economic behavior to go where you can get the best deal.

For needy families, Ivies & elite schools have the fattest endowments. These rich schools are typically the most generous in giving out aid.

For families who pay full freight, the draw is the most bang for the buck. Elite U and NoName U charge the same price. Even though a Toyota may be just as serviceable as a Mercedes, the average person who is being charged the same price for eirher, is going to pick the Mercedes.

^^ it should be “HAD” in BOTH college and HS, since not all students will go on to college.

@GMTplus7 Indeed ! My daughter told me that several of the kids in her school were told by parents that they would only pay for the kids’ college education if they got into a top 20 school.