“I don’t think it’s ridiculous for a kid who has spent K-12 being called the nerd or the geek because he/she actually reads the book that’s assigned in English class, or does the math homework, etc. to want to be in an intellectually enriching environment for college. And depending on which state the kid lives in, telling the kid to just suck it up and go to the state college down the interstate highway with all the kids who’ve been mocking him for 12 years- well, I get that a family might not think that’s the optimal path forward.”
“I bet that the GC is evaluated on this number as it is being used by schools as a great marketing tool.”
At my kid’s private HS, the GCs try hard to tamp down the expectations of parents and students. In meetings, they repeatedly emphasize the importance of “fit” and stress that there are many colleges that provide a great education. The GCs ensure that the kids create a balanced college list and that any applications to extreme reaches like HYPSM etc. really make sense.
The HS, however, then turns around and uses the obligatory class photo of seniors in their college sweatshirts as a marketing tool. Many parents, when considering private over public HS education, look at the senior class sweatshirt photo and assess the value of paying tuition for four years. Even though the GCs fundamentally disagree with chasing prestige, the marketing group recognizes that the HS is being evaluated in this way and uses the matriculation list and sweatshirt photo as advertising for prospective parents.
A “high quality US college education” can arguably be had at hundreds of colleges around the US, not just Harvard and its peers. The bigger question here is what do we (as parents and students) consider “good enough” for all intents and purposes? Is Harvard overkill for most students? Possibly.
I think people often get caught up in this idealistic ranking mentality, whereby a college is either a winner or a loser. School X is good, but School Y is better, and School Z is better than School Y… Ok, but what does any of this really mean in a practical sense?? Will School X or Y still allow me to accomplish my goals in life? The answer is often yes. Is the significant amount of additional work required to get into School Z worth it in the end?
Fractal- of course, sure, we all agree with you. But it is MORE work (not less work) for a kid who has the chops to get into Harvard to create that same level of academic intensity at Hofstra or Adelphi or Pace. Can it be done? Sure. And there are places where it’s relatively easier than others. Kid is interested in majoring in Classics, lives in NH, parents are of modest means. If the kid can get into Harvard- bingo. Won the brass ring. Is UNH a good alternative? Not as good as Lawrence in Wisconsin- but that assumes that Lawrence is affordable (and may not be). Michigan and Berkeley are public U’s with world class Classics departments- but getting in from OOS and affording it- back to square one.
I am sympathetic to the madness. For many kids- it doesn’t matter. Their academic interests are somewhat fungible. For other kids- it could matter a great deal.
I for one wanted my kids to go to schools that I thought were really good schools. I sort of mentally define that as within the top 40 universities and top 40 LAC’s, though there’s nothing magical about 40 – that’s just sort of a general cut-off. Within there, yes, there’s a hierarchy, but it’s shades of gray. And yes, I do snicker at the kind of person who sees a truly meaningful difference between, say, Yale and Duke (unless you’re talking about a specific program that one offers and the other doesn’t). It’s just so … desperate striver clinging at minute distinctions. And desperate isn’t cool.
@JHS, a kid from a family making between $70K-$200K who can get in to Harvard almost certainly is also able to score full-rides from a decent number of places (not to mention that a few schools may be as or sometimes be even more generous with grants, some combination of fin aid or merit, than Harvard), so for pretty much no one (who can get in to Harvard) is Harvard the only affordable option.
Purple- while your point is undoubtedly true, are you going to tell a kid who is choosing between University of New Hampshire and Harvard – with an identical out of pocket cost- merit from NH and need based from Harvard- that there are substantial academic reasons to choose UNH?
We’ve seen some kids on CC (generally with stellar resumes) who only apply to the very tippy-top and a local state school (which they hate) either because they believe that only the very tippy-top would be affordable or because they seem to think that there is some vast gulf between the top 10 and everybody else (evidently, everything outside the Ivies+Stanford+MIT is equivalent to Podunk State U in their eyes) when the reality is that there is a whole vast diverse continuum of opportunity and affordability (and across multiple dimensions) in higher ed in the US.
It’s very black-and-white inflexible thinking which may make sense in certain countries where all unis are the same type and differ only in pretige and there is a hard cutoff for certain positions, but in the US with publics and privates, LACs, research U’s, huge variations in size, fin aid, types of merit awards, curricula, and pretty much any other dimension you can think of, if you think that way, you almost have to be ignorant.
“I wonder if the blind push toward elite schools, something unknown when I was in high school in the 70s…”
“Back in our day college was almost entirely an in-state or at most a regional thing. Kids who considered traveling clear across the country to attend college were very rare.”
I disagree with the above statements. “Ivy Fever” definitely existed back in the 70’s, Harvard was the “dream school” of most of the top students at my high school. I remember one of them wearing her Harvard t-shirt to school frequently, though she wasn’t accepted there after graduation. I have a cousin from Iowa who graduated from high school in the mid-70’s. His dream schools were Harvard and Stanford, he applied to both but was turned down.
I believe most of the problem today is that we have a much larger pool of high school graduates applying to elite schools that are only accepting about the same number of students they did years ago. A lot more students applying for about the same number of spots means a lot more kids making “the blind push toward elite schools”. I don’t think there’s any question that the top Ivy’s, as well as other elite schools around the country, are currently receiving an all-time record number of applications. I think population increase has more to do with it than U.S. News rankings.
@blossom, no, but why would those 2 be that kid’s only two choices? Something must have been wrong with that kid’s application list if those were his/her only two choices, would you not agree?
“Fractal- of course, sure, we all agree with you. But it is MORE work (not less work) for a kid who has the chops to get into Harvard to create that same level of academic intensity at Hofstra or Adelphi or Pace. Can it be done? Sure.”
There’s also a social component to this. Is the kid who has the chops to get into Harvard going to still find a lot of smart kids at, say, Tufts, or Brandeis? Sure. He’s going to have a lot harder time finding them … socially … at the Hofstras and Adelphis of the world. Not to say they aren’t there and can’t be found, but it’s harder, esp for an introvert.
@fractalmstr I agree with most of your #44, but you strategically cut the phrase “For non-wealthy internationals” off of my quote. Yes, there are many, many high-quality US institutions, but only a handful that meet financial need for international applicants, and not so many ready to give substantial merit to internationals. (And finding those opportunities is a LOT of work.) That’s why I stand by the statement that a handful of elite institutions, including Harvard, represent the best opportunity for a high quality U.S. college education for those internationals. I was being pretty careful not to say they were the best opportunity for everyone.
@PurpleTitan similarly, I never claimed that Harvard would generally be the only affordable option for doughnut-hole American families. My impression in the real world and CC, though, is that most people would have to go pretty far down the academic food chain to be assured of getting a better offer than would come with a Harvard acceptance. Sure, people who get accepted at Harvard may also be offered full-ride merit scholarships at Duke, UNC, or Michigan. But I don’t think anyone ought to complain about the kids who are offered those scholarships also applying to HYPS (especially before they are offered the scholarships). Those are the kids who are actually likely to be accepted wherever they apply.
I think the Ivy craze is reflective of the saying “no good deed goes unpunished” - by trying to do people a favor by offering such generous aid, they tilted the balance by making their schools not just better, but better-plus-cheaper. No wonder people jump all over themselves to get in.
@PurpleTitan …actually sometimes if a kid can get into an Ivy it becomes the more affordable option. It was in our case. Weird I know but true. I think students can get a great education at LAC’s, state U’s or Ivy’s. It depends on the individual student.
My nephew just graduated from an Ivy with a philosophy degree. He had 3 job offers in the television/ movie industry within a month of graduation. I don’t think that would have happened with a degree from our Midwest flagship. That’s the sort of thing that drives the “Ivy magic” aura.
“1. The Rise of the National College Student. Back in our day college was almost entirely an in-state or at most a regional thing. Kids who considered traveling clear across the country to attend college were very rare. For me Harvard was about as far away as Mars. But beginning in the 1980s and 90s with the advent of the perfect storm of USNews rankings, combined with college info freely available online, combined with the Common App and other easy online applications, suddenly it all seems so possible and so desirable.”
This. Totally totally this.
The admissions market for elite colleges used to be very local/regional. Now it is fully national/international. And since the segment of the population aspiring to go to college has exploded, a premium is now attached to a degree from certain schools. Previously, any college degree put you in relatively select company – no longer.
Financial aid (government and institutional), cheap airplane travel, USNWR rankings, Common App, internet, standardized tests. They all have globalized what used to be a pretty local market.
In fact, Harvard invented the SAT test for precisely this reason.
They wanted a tool that would enable them to identify the brainiacs from Nebraska or wherever, rather than continuing to enroll the narrow band of northeast WASP prep schoolers that dominated their enrollment until just a few decades ago.
“My nephew just graduated from an Ivy with a philosophy degree. He had 3 job offers in the television/ movie industry within a month of graduation. I don’t think that would have happened with a degree from our Midwest flagship. That’s the sort of thing that drives the “Ivy magic” aura.”
He might not have had that particular opportunity at your midwest flagship. Midwest flagships will offer different opportunities. I guess a lot depends on how you see things – are there only certain paths to career happiness, or are there lots of different paths.