<p>I once had the opportunity to meet with Ayatollah Montazeri. One of the most wonderful, kindly, and (in context) liberal people I ever hope to meet.</p>
<p>(The contrast with Jerry Falwell couldn’t be more striking. While Jerry Falwell was decrying abortionists, feminists, gays and lesbians, and the ACLU as having caused 911, hundreds of thousands of Iranians took to the streets of Tehran in a candlelight vigil in support of the American people.)</p>
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<p>Then spare us the bigotry and racism and call religious fundamentalism what it is, religious fundamentalism, or religious bigotry; but do not assume that all religious bigotry is synonymous with only one religion and in that one cult of one religion; just as all racism is --clearly-- not synonymous with one race.</p>
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Agreed.</p>
<p>Montazeri paid heavily for his stand agains the union of mosque and state: but racism and bigotry have their own rhetorical dictates and defenders.</p>
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<p>I admit that I am not closely familiar with all that Falwell had been associated with.
While fear and hate, has motivated some to fight against it, I try and pay more attention to those I want to learn from.</p>
<p>However, this does remind me, of George Wallace, who lived long enough to ask for and even received forgiveness from many who he had fought against earlier in his life. I don’t think anyone really knows what prompted that turnaround, but the part of me that acknowledges Falwell as a fellow human, is sad that he didn’t come to that place before he died.</p>
<p>I live near Falwell world. Sadly, I must report that his views represent the intellectual reach (or lack thereof), the need for simple blaming/scapegoating explanations of reality, the need to be elevated and “special” while never making any effort to study the diversity in the human race in this wide world and the limited acumen and paranoia and distrust of “strangers” of many many people near me. I dreaded any trips to Lynchburg because I just felt awful for the kids working in all the shops who think their lucky break is an education at Liberty. Buildings on campus built off that guy’s megafortune who writes the best selling Rapture series…UGH!! The opposite of literature and art.
Used to see JF around town with a cell phone going and a big plate of food in front of him in restaurants down here where he could pass himself off as a leader of men and a moral force. He was more a study of flawed humanity, hubris and misinformation than anything else.</p>
<p>I’m having a hard time seeing how the hate on one side is any more intense than the hate on the other. In fact, when I plug in “hate gays” on google, I see pages and pages of: why Christians hate gays, why straights hate gays, why Bush hates gays, why the religious right hates gays. There is one site that is called “5 reasons to hate gays,” which has a disclaimer–of course, no decent person hates gays, but they can disapprove," which goes on to quote scripture. In addition, I’ve never seen hatred for gays expressed on this board, though I have seen hate directed toward the religious right and the people associated with it. I know my relgion has been accused of “hating gays,” though I’ve never heard one word against a gay person or gays in general by anyone in my church in my lifetime. But I’m assured by folks here it goes on at other churches.</p>
<p>Oh well. I thought all hatred was equal…but I’ve learned here certain hatreds are morally superior.</p>
<p>I couldn’t possibly be bothered to search for the endless homophobic remarks posted by certain CC posters. But they’re here, and I am certain other people remember them too.</p>
<p>Let’s be clear: Jerry didn’t hate gay people, even if they caused 911. He loved terrorists too.</p>
<p>I don’t include taking a principled stand for informed reasons against gay marriage as “homophobic” (“unreasoned fear or antipathy toward homosexuals or homosexuality” - Random House) especially when people are otherwise in support of all other civil rights, including civil unions. But in many people’s minds and on these websites anyone opposing gay marriage “hates gays” and is “homophobic.” You’re right.</p>
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<p>If that were the case the Democratic Party is homophobic and hates gays because as the leader of their party is quick to point out, the official policy of the Democratic party is against gay marriage. But I guess the correct interpretation is that if you are a Republican and are against gay marriage you are a homophobe; if you are a Democrat you are taking a principled stance regarding the sanctity of marriage.</p>
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I know a number of gay people who do not support gay marriage. I do not think Jerry Falwell, though, is someone who just took “a principled stand for informed reasons against gay marriage.” </p>
<p>If you were responding to Allmusic’s post, there are many comments about homosexuals or homosexuality on the CC boards that go much further than principled stands for informed reasons against gay marriage.</p>
<p>I’m not a fan of the word or concept of hatred in everyday speech, but there is morally superior and morally inferior disapprovement/dislike. If someone dislikes (“hates”) it when homophobic people make life unnecessarily difficult or unpleasant for good people without solid reasoning, it could be a morally superior dislike than the dislike by the people who dislike (“hate”) others only because they are gay. One dislike is not liking people who make life difficult for others, and one is not liking people because they are gay. They are different. Different types of, reasons for, and impacts of dislike (“hate”) have different moral standings. To bring it to an extreme, there is a difference between hating Hitler and Hitler hating Jews.</p>
<p>Thank you, Corranged, for that well reasoned post.</p>
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<p>Thus ends the thread, according to the tenets of Godwin’s Law.</p>
<p>What’s ironic is that I almost never use Hitler/Nazi examples or comparisons, and it annoys me how often they’re used, WashDad. :)</p>
<p>And not a minute too soon. :p</p>
<p>I think the differentiation here is “hating” an individual for his/her actions vs. hating a group/subculture, ad infinitum. I don’t think you can apply the term prejudiced to dislike/hatred of an individual the way you can to an entire group.</p>
<p>As for being for/against gay marriage, I think it’s pretty simple. If you’re against it, don’t do it. How can it possibly influence me either negatively or positively unless I let it? It never ceases to amaze me how anyone else but me could possibly care about who I married, what I have for breakfast, how/if I choose to worship, etc.</p>
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<p>Like Falwell did for HIV victims? If we were to do unto Falwell as he did to others, we’d have been doing all in our power to make his last days a nightmare.</p>
<p>Anyone who wants to pretend Falwell’s bigoted statements were a principled stand about marriage should go back and read some of the things he said about HIV being God’s punishment for homosexuality. </p>
<p>He even called a Christian congregation that had gay people in it “vile and satanic” and preached to his flock that heaven would rejoice when they were annihilated (see the court documents I linked earlier).</p>
<p>That had nothing to do with marriage. Whatsoever.</p>
<p>As for Falwell’s famous “apologies” they were always of the “sorry I got caught” variety. He would say he was sorry, then go back right back to doing the same thing, as his supporters nodded in agreement and sent in checks.</p>
<p>I was responding to AM’s claims about cc posters’ “homophobic” remarks. In the year I’ve been here, I’ve not seen hatred for gays expressed, but then I pretty much stick to the parents’ forums; I suppose it’s possible that it’s expressed on other forums. </p>
<p>In general I think discourse on the subject could be vastly improved if the word “homophobic” was used according to its dictionary and intended meaning (“unreasoned fear or antipathy toward homosexuals or homosexuality”).</p>
<p>And I do believe there has been plenty of commentary about the “sick” nature of homosexuals, about how they could be rehabilitated from their evil ways, about how they are not accepted by G-d, about how schools are teaching that horrible “homosexual” agenda (I particularly remember that thread, where lots of was said) etc. Perhaps you don’t perceive that as “hatred”, but other people do (like me).</p>
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<p>There have also been plenty of posts here in the parent’s cafe equating homosexuality with pedophilia (as higherlead put it “a preference for boy bottoms”), as well as beastiality.</p>