John McCain doesn't have a plan for education...?

Parent Cafe
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<p>[John</a> McCain 2008 - John McCain for President](<a href=“http://www.johnmccain.com/Informing/Issues/19ce50b5-daa8-4795-b92d-92bd0d985bca.htm]John”>http://www.johnmccain.com/Informing/Issues/19ce50b5-daa8-4795-b92d-92bd0d985bca.htm)</p>

<p>McCain’s plan as of now seems like a bunch of rhetoric…</p>

<p>Personally, I do not disagree with the idea behind the voucher system–which is that schools will perform better when there are more tangible incentives i.e. money. However, I do not think the system is practical. Where I live, most private schools predict their tuition will be around $20,000 in 10 or 15 years, and, unless the size of the voucher will be determined by need and not uniform, I cannot imagine the government giving out a voucher worth $20,000. Is it that the government would have to subsidize education or put price controls in place?</p>

<p>Anyone have more details about how a voucher system works? McCain’s site seemed to be lacking in that department.</p>

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<p>You’ve hit the nail on the head with the problem with vouchers – they are usually for a fixed amount that is not enough to pay a private school tuition. They help the middle class & well off but leave the poor behind, plus end up taking more money out of the public school system where the poor are left.</p>

<p>In other words, lets say the system gives every family a $5000 voucher and private schools in the community typically charge $9,000-- leaving the family to pay $4,000.</p>

<p>The poor can no more afford $4,000 than the could to pay $9,000 - especially when you multiply the number for multiple children and consider greater obstacles they face in terms of arranging transportation and other incidental costs.</p>

<p>Those in the middle class who couldn’t possibly pay $9,000 for each of their kids but can afford $4,000 do get a needed benefit. </p>

<p>The wealthy who could easily afford $9,000 get a discount they don’t need, coming out of tax dollars.</p>

<p>But here’s the clincher: there is nothing to stop the private schools from raising their tuitions --so suppose they average tuition goes from $9,000 to $12,000. The rich still get a discount – they are paying $7000 rather than $9000. But now there are far fewer middle class families that can take advantage of the cuts – and of course the poor people are still left behind in deteriorating and underfunded schools.</p>

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<p>That being said, I didn’t see anything whatsoever on the McCain site saying that he supports vouchers. I find the site somewhat obtuse, but as far as I can gather, McCain is saying that he supports the failed No Child Left Behind provisions. NCLB specifically allowed parents to move their kids from schools designated “failing” to different public schools – but even though the law allowed that, in practice it didn’t work, for 2 reason: 1) The schools most desired by parents filled up and didn’t have space for more students – hence, there was no place to go; and 2) the standards by which a school was designated “failing” were ridiculous, because they were based on subgroup performance, so often the best schools were the ones who got that designation. For example, the school with the best programs for special ed would end up being penalized because the special ed kids did not meet target educational goals – even though the only way to qualify for special ed is to be significantly behind the others. So, bottom line, the legal definition of “failing” didn’t always fit within what parents would want, anyway - so it wasn’t much of choice.</p>

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<p>Vouchers only work if there is a requirement that schools accept them as full payment. Otherwise, they are just another form of income and tax redistribution from the poor to the wealthy. (Nothing new there.)</p>

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<p>Your title is objectively untrue. McCain has an education plan, you linked to it. The fact that you don’t like McCain does not mean he does not have an education plan. How about trying to be a little more accurate in your titles instead of the same old partian rants?</p>

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<p>Both the Obama and McCain education plans are somewhat vague but Obama’s has more specifics. There are pretty big limits as to what can be done at the Federal level when the states are mostly responsible for education.</p>

<p>As far as vouchers go, they do work well in other countries.</p>

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<p>Well actually razorsharp, if you read the page that was linked to, there is no “plan” on it. More like an opinion expressed on an existing law, which as I noted above, didn’t work and now has lapsed. So I’d call it “nostalgia” rather than “plan”. </p>

<p>Compare that to the Obama page here: [Barack</a> Obama | Change We Can Believe In | Education](<a href=“http://www.barackobama.com/issues/education/]Barack”>http://www.barackobama.com/issues/education/) </p>

<p>Note all the bullet points. That’s what a “plan” generally looks like. Whether you agree with or not, there are a lot of specifics.</p>

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<p>razorsharp:</p>

<p>Your post is objectively rude.</p>

<p>McCain’s “plan” is more like an essay. There isn’t anything specific in it. </p>

<p>For example:</p>

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<p>This is just a bunch of rhetoric. What does McCain want to do to correct this injustice? Voucher programs? I knows he supposed to be a proponent of them but the word “voucher” doesn’t even appear in his “plan.”</p>

<p>Compare all of this to Obama’s plan:</p>

<p>[Barack</a> Obama | Change We Can Believe In | Education](<a href=“http://www.barackobama.com/issues/education/]Barack”>http://www.barackobama.com/issues/education/)</p>

<p>Please, if you don’t think you can refrain from being rude and actually contribute to the discussion, do not post in this thread. I am getting very tired of all of the threads on politics degenerating into nonsense.</p>

<p>BCEagle91:</p>

<p>Most other countries subsidize education though. We would have to increase taxes substantially to do something like that.</p>

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<p>BCEagle – which countries?</p>

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<p>calmom:</p>

<p>Nigeria does; however, they subsidize education. Also, they don’t require that everyone attend school so that probably cuts down on costs haha.</p>

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<p>BCEagle: Which countries? How much does private school cost in those countries? My niece is attending one of the most prestigious lycees in Paris (100% success at the Bac). It cost about $1000 per year (in 2002). This is much less than what our local parochial school cost at that time. The private day school we looked at that year cost $20k. No voucher system could cope with this kind of expenses.</p>

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<p>My best example is Singapore. The other country is in Europe - I saw a documentary on it and the teachers thought it odd not to have a voucher system. I don’t recall the country though as it was several years ago.</p>

<p>I have visited an elementary school in Singapore (and my wife grew up there) and they run their public schools far leaner than we do in the US. Perhaps private schools are run similarly. One other thing about Singapore: there are four main races and four main religions. Many countries have a lot of conflict between racial and religious groups and providing parents choices that respect their beliefs may contribute to the racial and religious harmony there.</p>

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<p>Newjack, I don’t know what your source is, but from what I can find on the internet, the situation with education in Nigeria is absolutely appalling. And how do you reconcile the statement about vouchers with this memo, written only a month ago: [The</a> African Executive | Invitation to Luncheon: Should Government Fund Students or Public Schools?](<a href=“http://www.africanexecutive.com/modules/magazine/articles.php?article=3248]The”>http://www.africanexecutive.com/modules/magazine/articles.php?article=3248) “There is need to critically analyse the age-old solutions and explore innovative ideas including school vouchers, deregulation and decentralization of curriculum, examinations and textbooks.” – it sure doesn’t sound like they have a voucher system currently in place.</p>

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<p>calmom:</p>

<p>Parents but they went to school there back in the 1970s. After talking to them more in depth about it, I actually don’t think it’s a voucher system. It’s mostly just subsidized education because most everyone has to pay from their pockets. (If you’re really smart though, it’s free and you get to go to the good schools.)</p>

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<p>BCEagle, I’m skeptical. I can’t find any reference to school vouchers in Singapore online except a press release from a Union that it is offering vouchers to its lower income members (funded by the trade union) - see: [NTUC</a> Online : Press Releases](<a href=“http://www.ntuc.com.sg/ntucunions/statements/statements_06B0C52456974C5F9D0B2D07DBB76482.htm]NTUC”>http://www.ntuc.com.sg/ntucunions/statements/statements_06B0C52456974C5F9D0B2D07DBB76482.htm) - I question why a union would need to fund something if there were already government funds available. I then went to the Singapore Ministry of Education web site at [Ministry</a> of Education, Singapore](<a href=“http://www.moe.gov.sg/]Ministry”>http://www.moe.gov.sg/) and did a word search for “voucher” as well as read their section on private schools, and I didn’t find any mention of such a program. </p>

<p>I’m thinking that a film documentary is not a very reliable source of information. I don’t doubt that you saw that – I just think that unfortunately many documentaries are produced by film makers who are pushing a particular agenda and I tend to take stuff I see in films with a grain of salt unless I can independently verify them.</p>

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<p>Singapore provides government assistance to public and private schools. I guess that’s technically not a voucher.</p>

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<p>Fix education? How about preventing 35% of parents from having kids? The nonexistent parenting occurring nowadays is laughable.</p>

<p>The good thing about vouchers is it lets good parents/kids who are middle-class or poor to get away from families who are poor and do not value education (these kids are pretty much a lost cause regardless). The problem with poor schools is that it hurts those who could actually succeed in a good school.</p>

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<p>The voucher system in Chile has been analyzed extensively (their pension system has also been analyzed extensively). Chile is about to change how the system is run based on some recommendations by the people who have looked at the program.</p>

<p>This is just one study, there are a lot out there about the program (you can google chile and voucher program to get more information)</p>

<p>[Educational</a> Evaluation and Policy Analysis – Sign In Page](<a href=“http://epa.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/22/3/213]Educational”>http://epa.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/22/3/213)</p>

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<p>Agree with calmom’s post #2 and mini’s post #3.</p>

<p>From McCain’s site: “As president, John McCain will pursue reforms that address the underlying cultural problems in our education system.” Wow. Wonder how he’s planning on doing that. I’d like to see some specifics.</p>

<p>As for Obama’s plan, also wow. Wonder how we’d fund it. Much better on specifics, though. Of course, Congress would be the ultimate arbitrator. He’s picked the right discussion points, IMO.</p>

<p>Some of the problems I’ve seen firsthand with vouchers:</p>

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<li><p>Low income families like them and want to use them, but transportation problems to “chosen” schools can be insurmountable (the burden falls on the families).</p></li>
<li><p>Students from low SES families frequently suffer from high family mobility (having to move multiple times during the school year, within a district). Not all districts have a uniform curriculum. With each move to a new school, students fall further and further behind.</p></li>
<li><p>“Failing” schools suffer from high teacher and administrator turnovers and frequently have the least total cumulative experience among staff unless individual financial (and district policy) incentives are in place to encourage staffing at such schools. Burnout rates are higher at such schools, contributing to turnover.</p></li>
<li><p>Private schools, including parochial, are not subject to statewide testing mandates to track progress for the schools or students according to NCLB mandates, nor do they receive funding (like Title I) for support services that public schools receive. This varies widely from state to state, within NCLB guidelines. Neither are private schools required to hire certified-in-subject teachers, defined as “highly qualified” by NCLB.</p></li>
</ul>

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<p>No, McCain has an education plan and it is untruthful to say he does not have one. The fact that McCain’s plan is not as detailed as what you prefer to be a quality plan does not mean McCain lacks a plan. It is clear from McCain’s website what he plans to do on the issue of education. The fact that you don’t like what he plans to do does not turn his postion into the absence of a plan. </p>

<p>Liberals have an obscession with “plans.” We saw this when the Iraq war started and liberals began screaming about where is the war plan, who is the author of the plan, the plan isn’t detailed enough. Saying someone does not have a plan is meaningless. What matters is whether the plan will work and the militiary plan of attack in Iraq worked brilliantly and Rumsfeld was a genius in that regard. McCain’s education plan will work much better than Obama’s plan.</p>

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<p>"No Child Left Behind has focused our attention on the realities of how students perform against a common standard. John McCain believes that we can no longer accept low standards for some students and high standards for others. In this age of honest reporting, we finally see what is happening to students who were previously invisible. While that is progress all its own, it compels us to seek and find solutions to the dismal facts before us.</p>

<p>John McCain believes our schools can and should compete to be the most innovative, flexible and student-centered - not safe havens for the uninspired and unaccountable. He believes we should let them compete for the most effective, character-building teachers, hire them, and reward them."</p>

<p>NCLB and innovative, flexible and student-centered have been shown to be incompatible. NCLB has resulted in more standardization of curricular materials. Which is great if you’re a textbook publisher with the statewide contract. But if your a kid that doesn’t learn well with those materials, then you’re in need of improvement.</p>

<p>One of the previous strengths of the US Educational system was diversity. It wasn’t always good but there were a lot of differences in materials and methods which resulted in diverse learning and ideas. That’s one of my big criticisms of NCLB and why I’m surprised that both candidates support the architecture.</p>