Junior Looking Into BS MD (chance me)

Pre-Med & Medical School Multiple Degree Programs
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Not really sure how different things like ECs, standarized, tests, and gpa are looked at by colleges or bs mds so posting it here for some advice and things to work on.

High School: Competitive School Ranked #2 STEM school in nation.
Gender+Ethnicity: Male Indian

GPA: 4.64 when i apply probably a 4.78-4.81
Class Rank: top 1% according to counselor we don’t do class rank though.
sat: 1550 ppl told me that ain’t good enough but i really don’t want to take it again (2nd attempt)

coursework:
took pretty hard stuff like ap chem, ap bio, ap calc ab/bc, physics 1.
planning to take ochem and gt math classes next year.

Awards:
Named most exceptional junior in my entire county.
An Academic All American, prestigious debate award that less than 1% of all debaters in the nation get.
President’s Volunteer Service Award, mostly got the hours from a senior living center i rlly enjoy helping out there.
Padel State Champion, 100+ people competed for it.

ECS:
Pretty good debater placed in nationals(NSDA) and qualified to TOC which is very prestigious in debate.
Did HOSA and qualified to ILC although didn’t place in internationals but 1st in state.
Top 10 high school chess player and top 100 overall in my state.
semi pro padel player who plays in the junior tour and might be able to qualify for junior national team

nonprofit helping with communication and debate skills for elementary students around my state impacted over 1000 students directly and plan to go out to more.

more healthcare specific stuff:
kinda my problem rn. i literally have 0 hours of actual healthcare volunteering. im not really sure how to do it. I just turned 16 but most of these hospitals only have summer programs which kinda screws me over.
although I did over 500+ hours at the senior living center i didn’t start that intending to help my college apps or smth it was more to help my neighbor. but idt thats considered healthcare volunteering.
planning to ask neighbor to volunteer at local community hospital hopefully will get some healthcare hours that way.

Schools:
Recommend some for me I’m really not sure where to apply to.
I would prefer not to go to a school without a high pass rate or that does heavy grade deflation.

Thanks so much for the help!

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1550 on the SAT is superb.

For admissions as a freshman into a very good university that is very good for premed students, this is not a problem. For admissions into a BS/MD program, I think that this is a big issue.

There are some academically excellent students who do not go well in actual contact with patients, or who get into a healthcare environment and discover that they just do not like it. I would not expect a student to get accepted to a BS/MD program, or into an MD program, without having significant experience in a medical environment.

However, academically you are doing exceptionally well. To me you look like you are clearly academically strong enough to handle medical school (which is very strong). You just might need to take the more traditional route of first getting a bachelor’s degree and then applying to medical school. This way you have multiple years left to get the experience in a medical environment that you will need.

I would be very cautious about this. You do not need to take organic chemistry while you are still in high school. You do not need to take organic chemistry as a freshman in university. Both daughters for example postponed organic chemistry until they were juniors in university. One daughter called it “the most difficult B- that I have ever had in my life”, but this one B- did not stop her from getting multiple acceptances to very good DVM programs. The other daughter breezed through it (and is currently getting a PhD). However, in both cases having waited until their junior year of university allowed them to be very well prepared before they took it.

Finally, medical school is insanely expensive. Most premed students would be better off to get their bachelor’s degree at an affordable university, and then spend the big bucks for their MD. There are a very large number (hundreds) of colleges and universities that are excellent for premed students. Even if you go to a university ranked in the 100 to 150 range, your exceptional results in high school will help you to do very well in very tough premed classes, and will very possibly also give you the chance to get merit aid somewhere and thereby save some big $$$ to help to offset the cost of medical school.

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OP- why do you want to go to medical school?

The point in getting hands on experience is not to impress an adcom. It’s for YOU to get a better understanding of what life as a physician is all about.

Body fluids- all of them, all the time. People in pain- lots of pain. People who need to make hard decisions- whether the family members or the patients-- and blaming YOU for the impossible situation they are in. Constant paperwork and hours spent charting and documenting. Lots of admin time- trying to get the hospital’s board to make an exception of some kind to some sort of policy. Arguing with an insurance company. Preparing a case to present to your hospital’s tumor board, knowing that your patient might be dead by the time you actually get to present the case. And addicted patients constantly trying to outsmart the medical establishment to get MORE of the substance which is slowly killing them.

Going the BS/MD route is for people who understand with a lot of clarity what it means to be a physician. I get that you’re smart and are good at science. But there are dozens of careers you’d be great at that don’t involve medical school…

Think about it…

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Unlikely for BS/MD to answer your question but you never know.

So what?

You can go to school four years and then apply med school.

Have both options ready.

Best of luck either way.

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Some BS/MD programs may consider your experiences at a senior center as clinical exposure–depending on what you actually DID during your time there.

If you basically provided companionship and did small errands–not clinical. If you were present for doctor’s exams or bodily procedures being done–that’s clinical.

Also there’s an issue if you count your hours at the senior center as clinical experience. If you do, then you have zero community service hours. You need both.

Physicians are expected to demonstrate compassion for their fellow humans through community service. It’s one of the competencies adcomms look for in potential physicians.

For clinical experience–

As a 16 year old, your state may allow you to become a junior EMT or CNA. Check your state regulations. Becoming a EMT or CNA requires certification classes that are typically available at your local community college. Some doctors may allow you to work/volunteer as a medical assistant in their private practice. (NOTE: some states mandate certification for medical assistants. Please check your state’s regulations.)

Other ideas include volunteering at group home for the physically or mentally ill; a rehab hospital, or working a therapeutic day camp or other site for [mentally or physically] disabled children or adults. Also your county public medical clinic may allow younger volunteers. Planned Parenthood is another idea.

You are also lacking in physician shadowing. You need about 50 hours of shadowing. If possible you should shadow in a few different specialties, but if you can only shadow one doctor it should be someone in primary care. Why? Because the majority of med students go into primary care and you need to see what their days are like.

Like @DadTwoGirls I would also suggest caution about taking ochem while still in high school. It’s a very challenging class and requires different approaches to learning the material than other classes you’ve taken. (Even different than general chemistry.)

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Are you an international student? Or are you a U.S. citizen or permanent resident. I ask because you reference “my country” a few times…which makes me think you are from a country other than the U.S.

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i really enjoy helping people like in senior living centers and stuff but i don’t think thats viable for me to work there and make a good living. obviously people going through medical school doing similar things helping patients make a bunch more money. i know try to being a doctor and actually doing the job are really hard things but I’m willing to work for it. Your probably right that I shouldn’t go the BS/MD route but Im seriously worrying about the entire MCAT and medical school application process. While I could possibly be good at other careers I’m honestly not sure what else I could do that I have some interest in.

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I’m from the US I just refer to it as nation and never say US lol my bad.

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Thanks so much for taking the time to help me out. I assisted with tasks like taking vital signs, eating food, assisted dressing, and mouth care. If these could be considered clincal hours that would be amazing for me. I started the more clinical aspect around 1 year ago when I got my CNA license at 16 which I completely forgot to mention. I’ve accumulated around 80 hours since then in this senior living home. I don’t think removing these hours would have a huge impact on my overall hours since I already have 200+ not including the senior living home hours. Volunteering at my county public medical clinic is a great idea thanks! I’ll make sure to check that out. I’ve worked with the Special Olympics nearby to help with disabled children getting into sports and other physical activities more. Your definitely right about how hard taking OCHEM will be in high school but I’m really not worried if it impacts my GPA since it will probably be after the college application cycle I’m more looking to improve my knowledge in chemistry which could potentially help me out in my college classes. Recent update: My neighbor who’s in primary care gave me an opportunity to shadow her. Hopefully from there I could network with other doctors to potentially shadowing an anesthesiologist which is a field i’m pretty interested in.

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Whenver I see posts here I see a lot of people saying if they could go back they would try to do a combined program where med school acceptance is guaranteed. Im honestly just scared of the process even if i could maybe handle it. Thanks for the help!

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Thanks for taking the time out to help a confused and possibly insane high schooler lol. In my limited experience in a hospital which i got through a camp I did enjoy interacting with different patients its just that the opportunity for me to get shadowing is hard since I only recently turned 16. So I’m finally able to go work or volunteer at clinics. Both your daughters sound extremely smart I’m honestly taking Ochem not to boost my GPA but rather to just get more knowledge in chemistry which can help me in med school or pre med. I think it would make sense for me to go the route of getting a bachelors degree then applying to med school but I really don’t want to struggle again over a standardized test or go through another process of applying to schools. While it might be inevitable if I don’t make a bs MD or a similar combined program avoiding that sounds like it would save me from a lot of tears and stress. About med schools expenses do you think they offer financial aid or any merit based scholarships or is that just for premed schools? Thanks for the help again.

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Most students find new things they really love in college - things that they hadn’t considered due to lack of exposure as well as little actual experience in the workforce learning their likes and dislikes, and their strengths and weaknesses. Be super open to the possibility you’re going to come across something amazing in college that isn’t even on your radar right now! There is zero need to lock in on something so early. Medical school will be there for you if that continues to be the path you want to be on, but know that you’ll get exposed to dozens of other potential paths once you’re in school and try to embrace that. In my opinion, it’s one of the best parts of college.

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There is a very good point related to this. We might look at this as an 8 year path, with 4 years to get a bachelor’s degree plus another 4 years to get an MD. I will discuss a couple of nits below after first thinking of it as a 4+4 path.

For the first 4 years, when getting a bachelor’s degree, there is a very wide range in terms of what it will cost. Some universities give very good need based aid, but only to students who qualify for need based aid. Some do not. In-state public universities are usually relatively affordable. Some schools offer merit aid. Some do not. Which university you attend to get a bachelor’s degree can make a very big difference in terms of what it costs. Also, a lot of universities are very good for premed (and for multiple other majors) which gives you a huge range of choices to consider.

For getting an MD, financial aid is very rare. I think that there might be a few medical schools that do not charge tuition, but if this is true then admissions to them would be very difficult. An in-state public medical school can be somewhat less expensive. If you are from a WICHE state, then there are some WICHE medical schools. However, most students just pay and pay and running up a very large medical school debt is very common.

Usually it is easier to save money on the bachelor’s degree part of this rather than on the MD.

Some students can get their bachelor’s degree in less than 4 years. This is one of multiple ways to save some money for a bachelor’s degree. However premed classes are very academically challenging and you should be careful about taking on too many of these at the same time. An MD as far as I know is always 4 years (unless it is longer – I have heard of a few cases of students taking 5 years to get a DVM if something goes wrong and I would guess the same might be true for an MD).

The large majority of students who start off thinking “premed” end up doing something else. One common issue is that some students find premed classes too difficult and do not get “medical school worthy” grades in their premed classes. However, it is probably just as common for students to just decide that they want to do something else. Some forms of “something else” are medicine / biology related, such as getting a PhD and going into research. Some forms of “something else” involves very different fields (law school, software engineering, or almost anything that you can think of).

This is very true and very important. Of course this can also lead to some very good outcomes when students find a career path that they love and that they are good at.

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If one really wanted an assured path to med school, why not the LECOM path as an alternative if BS/MD doesn’t work out? It’s BS/DO…turns out a lot of doctors are DOs…in fact, I had a specialist who was.

LECOM-AFFILIATED-COLLEGES-AND-UNIVERSITIES-2-16-24-2.pdf

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Adding all the schools that have med school early assurance programs, here’s AAMC’s list:

Some of those schools include additional schools in their programs. For example, Tufts has the Maine track where Bowdoin, Bates, and Colby students as well as those from all U Maine campuses are eligible for the early assurance program: Early Assurance Program | School of Medicine

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Well…then think of this. Future doctors in medical school take test after test after test after test…and it never ends. You will also need to apply to residency programs, and possibly to fellowship programs if you decide to do a fellowship.

If the MCAT and applying bother you….maybe a career as a doctor isn’t a good choice.

There are lots of ways to help people. Look at this thread for other health related jobs:

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This is a profound point.

I’ve posted before about a friend of mine- 60 years old, been a physician for decades, led a department at a large academic medical center, who had to retake her boards a few years ago. The state changed the licensing requirements in her specialty, so even though she was rarely seeing patients anymore (most of the work was training residents and fellows, administration of a large department, and managing research grants) the hospital’s certification team wouldn’t allow anyone without current licensure to operate in a medical capacity.

It was beyond painful, according to her. Cramming, studying, reviewing… and this was someone who was reading relevant journals and clinical trials every single day for her job. And still, the process of preparing for her boards was grueling. She said it wasn’t the “deep dive” that was hard- it was the comprehensive nature- the breadth of material it covered, all of which you needed to master, even content that you never needed to know in your actual job as a doctor.

So figure out if a profession that requires constant high stakes testing is for you!

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I’m not sure if you realize this, but any college level classes you take in high school are included in your GPA calculations for admission to medical school.

I’m not talking about AP classes you take at your high school, but any dual enrollment classes and classes you take at a community college or other college on your own time will be included in your med school application. You are required to report them and send a transcript when applying for med school.

Recent update: My neighbor who’s in primary care gave me an opportunity to shadow her.

Wonderful! That’s a tremendous opportunity.

You spoke about your worry about earning a living working in senior care. There are lots of roles besides being a physician that will allow you to work with seniors and still live comfortably.

Here’s a searchable database of health careers that you can use to see what other opportunities there are. You can search by years of education required and expected income.

You also asked about financial aid—Financial aid for med school is rare, except for loans, loans and more loans. The median debt for a new med school grad is around $250K right now with about 18% of med grads reporting no debt so the that distorts the results to be lower than it should be. (No debt because the family or the military paid for med school.)

Med school is then followed by 3-12 years of residency and fellowship training where med school grads are comparatively low paid. (Your high school math teacher makes more than most residents–and teachers have summers off if they want to add a second job. Residents work 80 hour weeks that include nights, weekends, holidays and have very limited time off. No second jobs–in fact they’re prohibited by their contracts from working another job.) Many residents and fellows are unable to pay down their loans because they aren’t earning enough to pay their living expenses AND make loan payments. So their loans continue to accrue interest and increase in size. It’s not uncommon for physicians to be paying off their own education loans for a decade or more after they finish residency and/or fellowship.

Going to med school typically means taking on a lot of debt (unless your family can pay for your medical education) so pre-meds are strongly advised to minimize any loans they’ll need for undergrad.

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BS/DO is a good option for someone who is sure they want to be a physician. Less competitive than BS/MD admissions (though still highly competitive) these programs are affiliated with a broader variety of undergrads, including many undergrads where a strong student might get merit aid to help bring the cost down.

LECOM, mentioned above, is one of the least expensive med school in the country. (Though check out the locations of LECOM’s campuses and their policies before you jump head-first into applying.)

Osteopathic physicians are much more likely to end up in primary care fields than MD/allopathic grads. (Lots of reasons I won’t go into here…) Geriatrics/FM is primary care; anesthesiology Is not.

Re: Early Assurance programs are another good option, but these programs are extremely competitive. Typically each partner med school accepts only 10 or fewer students/year.

I will also note that an early assurance acceptance locks a student into attending a particular med school. (Just as a BS/MD and BS/DO admission does.) You can’t apply out to the other med schools without losing your guaranteed admission.

Tufts is among the most expensive med schools in the country (tuition & fees over $72k/year with a COA of $111K/year)

WICHE options are limited to only those participating** states that do not have their own medical schools–Wyoming, Idaho, Montana and Alaska. Students from these states are covered by a special admission program at University of Washington. (WWAMI) Students from Montana and Wyoming will be considered for admission at 17 other western state med schools besides UWashington.

** The state government has to opt in to the program and agree to pay the support fees to the med schools involved.

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That’s great! You could also contact your pediatrician at some point down the road and ask about shadowing- many have had success doing this.

It is important to know whether this is really the type of work that you want to do. You may even be exposed to other paths while shadowing that spark an interest.