Junior stuck between ED W&M and shooting "higher"

Hi Bantamlove,

Our D is also a junior and I have had a really hard time with this process. I am not great with lots of “unknowns” and the college application process is very unpredictable. It can cause a lot of stress.

I’m not a big fan of ED generally. I suppose for kids who are fairly certain of one school over all others, it’s a great option ( for the school and the kid). I think, for most, ED creates a tremendous amount of unnecessary pressure. I try not to think about it too much.

We have been working hard to find a few (ideally we will have a handful) of affordable and likely admits that our D can take a shot at RD. Your D sounds like a very strong student. As someone else mentioned above, I too think she would be a strong candidate for W&M during RD.

The pressure is there for sure. It is very hard to avoid. I feel it too. Luckily, time is on your side :slight_smile:

Best of luck to your family during this process.

@WittgensteinWasSad disagree with the unpredictability.

The issue is planning - families put certain schools on a halo as if they’re going to guarantee success in life. They’re not.

College planning was predictable when I went 40 years ago and when my kids entered 6 and 4 years ago.

And remains so.

But families and students are their own worst enemies in planning.

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Has she visited Brown?

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No we haven’t visited Brown. We’ve visited a couple of Ivies that she ruled out, though.

Junior year is a time to research and explore college options. No need to choose anything to apply to until late summer/early fall.

Sample of one. My DD insisted she was going to apply only to Southern Methodist University…until spring of her junior year. She announced she didn’t want to go to college in Texas. And yes, we had visited SMU.

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Serious question: how can you possibly expect your D to have a clear first choice school as a high school junior when she hasn’t even visited all of the places she may be considering? At this point in the process you need to visit, visit, visit. It’s as much about ruling schools out as it is in. Has she visited William and Mary? Just to reiterate @Catcherinthetoast’s point about Brown being a fit school, the same goes for William & Mary. It is decidedly not for everyone.

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Parent of a HS junior here + 1 college freshman.

I agree w/others that you’re trying to nail this down too early. So it’s good that you’re talking about it here and instead, you can back off w/your daughter a little bit. It’s still January of 11th grade. You still have some time to figure this out.

In the meantime, you could consider shifting gears to refocus your energy on finding some non-lottery schools (i.e., almost impossible to get into for all applicants). Consider trying to find one college that your daughter has really excellent odds of getting into, has a campus feel/vibe that she likes, is affordable for your family, and checks all the other boxes of whatever are yours & her most important criteria.

The test score you mentioned isn’t high enough for an Ivy League school. Even students with perfect test scores get rejected from Brown every year. Students like your kid AND students with better credentials (better test scores, better GPA, more impressive extracurriculars).

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I understand the desire to plan, but it’s still very early. It was surprising how much my planner narrowed in on what really mattered to them over the course of senior year despite being very researched at the outset. I think when it becomes real, sometimes things come into clearer focus. A lot of growth happens.

FWIW, I have a very mainstream pre-med student at Brown. They are still very much a fit as they have vast interests and wanted the flexibility of the open curriculum. No shortage of this type of kid there too, they aren’t all artsy, quirky and politically active. Personal opinion, think top school student bodies are all very similar and more alike than not these days.

If the open curriculum is attractive there are other less reachy options she may want to look at too.

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Have you tried the NPC for the University of Rochester?

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I think the OP was saying that W&M was a match, not Brown, based on their previous posts.

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Yes we’ve visited W&M and done a ton of research there. Not Brown yet. We’ve visited a lot of places and continue to do so.

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Visits are awesome but be measured in how many, especially if the student is already feeling burned.

Only visit schools that will be affordable and get those few safeties in. Make the visits count meaning stop kids on campus and chat, eat in the cafeterias, walk the surrounds.

Think to include schools like Furman, Rhodes - great schools that are likelies both price after merit and admissibility.

Quality, not quantity.

And don’t forget - no matter how great a schoo is on paper, once they get there, they all have something wrong - bad profs, roomies, food, etc.

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So all I am reading is high reach schools. Just because her stats and GPA fit the school doesn’t mean she’s accepted. Spend time making an excel spreadsheet that is very detailed. Put everything on it like merit, when decisions come out, instate vs out state room and board etc etct. This should satisfy you doing some research.

But have a few safeties that she would love to go to. Many students get shut out since they never made a wide ranging list.

She’s a strong student. Let her keep doing that. If your around a college traveling there is nothing wrong in checking it out but have some fun. Find the students favorite pizza place. Trust me. Like every chemical lab building looks the same.

We actually stopped a few student’s and asked some questions. They were all too happy to answer them. This was much more informative then hearing the typical rah, rah speech the schools give.

We also set up time for our kids to have meetings with the department heads etc. This was very informative also.

As stated you have time. You mentioned fit. This and affordability to me are the most important things. Find other schools regardless of their names that have the same feel and fit. They are out there.

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This is very premature, given she has not yet visited. It seems backwards to me- usually one visits first and then the school moves way up to the top…and doesn’t move from that spot.

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It sounds like your daughter is a thoughtful person and is doing very well.

I would only apply ED anywhere if all three of the following are true: (1) It is clearly the student’s top choice; (2) The student has visited (possibly with a parent); (3) Either you are fine being full pay or the NPC shows it as likely to be affordable.

It does not sound to me as if all three of these are true, although the visit part could be cleared up over the summer and a visit might impact the first part as well.

I do not think that it is necessary to ED anywhere. There are a LOT of universities that are very good for biology, and that will offer good opportunities to a student interested in biology-related research.

I think that it will indeed be cut-throat with many premeds.

I think that W&M is a great choice and Brown is a great choice. Of course your daughter also needs to be sure to apply to safeties.

By the way your daughter sounds a lot like our younger daughter, except your daughter is younger and the 1480 PSAT is even more excellent than what our daughter got. This particular daughter did not ED anywhere, applied to 5 schools, had 5 offers to think about, and eventually picked one that was a good fit. Years later she is now studying for a PhD in a biomedical field.

I could have written the same things about my younger daughter 8 years ago. She applied more or less EA (all schools she applied to actually had rolling admissions). With admissions offers in hand we visited her top choices. One thing about visiting a school with an affordable offer in hand is that the student knows that they really can go there if they want to. It feels real. She eventually figured it out. If your daughter were to for example end up deciding between affordable offers from Brown and W&M, as a parent I would be tempted to say “they are both great options, you cannot go wrong”.

This is what I am thinking. Plan to visit both schools over the summer. Then if she has one clear top choice apply there ED. Otherwise apply EA or RD, wait for the offers to come in, if necessary visit again, and eventually either your daughter or the schools themselves will figure this out.

A student does not need to attend the highest ranked university they can get into. There are a lot of universities that are very good in general, very good for biology and research, and where a student can get a very good undergraduate education. Finding a good fit is more important but can be more difficult compared to just looking at rankings.

Also, schools are looking for students who are a good fit for them. They have done this before and they get it right very often.

And be careful about the finances. If you are full pay, then Brown is expensive. A bachelor’s degree in biology often leads to a graduate program. PhD’s are usually fully funded, but with a stipend that is only just enough to live on and some parent help can make the 6 or 7 years of getting a PhD easier to get through (apparently the stipend also counts as income for purposes of funding an IRA, and 6 or 7 years of funding an IRA early will help a lot in the long run but is only likely to be possible if the parent is helping the student out financially). Other graduate degrees such as master’s degrees are typically not funded.

And if you look at the students at very good biomedical PhD programs, they come from a very, very wide range of undergraduate schools.

Give this time. Your daughter sounds very sensible and thoughtful, is doing very well, and will eventually figure this out (whether before the ED deadline, or later after getting multiple acceptances in hand).

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Correct. Brown is a reach not a match.

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For sure visiting Brown will be important. And don’t just do the tour/info session. Eat the food. Read the Brown daily Herald (school) paper. In fact, you can have her read it on line
too https://www.browndailyherald.com/ Talk to students. What about it piques her interest at the present time? As others have already said, its very early for a junior to be narrowing down a list (other than to visit) and for SURE her opinions (about schools, major, priorities, etc) will change. That is normal for a kid. Embrace it. Its sounds like that is part of her inquisitive nature. Please separate the parent planning goals from the student explore persona. Good luck.

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Unless Brown stays at the absolute top after a visit, taking the actual SAT or ACT in the spring/summer and taking a wholistic view at her list in early fall of senior year and working with her school counselor about how she may be viewed in context with other Brown applicants from her school there is no reason to strategize about an ED to Brown.

It’s a reach based on her stats…frankly it’s a reach for any unhooked applicant. You can review the most recent ED cycle stats here:

It’s VERY competitive and even highly qualified applicants with 4.0 unweighted GPAs, perfect or near perfect SAT scores and very strong ECs will be denied…speaking from our own experience with this last cycle and D25 being one of those kids :confused:. Just a dose of reality!

She will have lots of time to shape her application list, just don’t lose sight of a reach being a reach! Good luck!

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I would visit 2 safety schools in addition to Brown.

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@Bantamlove I don’t recall that you asked for additional suggestions. Would you like some? If so, please let us know. If not, we can leave you alone regarding other options.

If price needs to be considered, and you want to share your budget, again…let us know.

We don’t have to give you suggestions if you don’t want them now, or wish to do your own research.

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