Just in - "Law Firm Recruiters Rank Best Law Schools"

College Search & Lists
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<p>UofMichiganites must be very happy with the climb of their alma mater</p>

<p>[Law</a> Firm Recruiters Rank Best Law Schools - US News and World Report](<a href=“http://www.usnews.com/education/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/articles/2011/03/07/law-firm-recruiters-rank-best-law-schools]Law”>http://www.usnews.com/education/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/articles/2011/03/07/law-firm-recruiters-rank-best-law-schools)</p>

<p>Rank School Average Reputation Score (5.0=highest) </p>

<ol>
<li>Harvard University 4.9 </li>
<li>Stanford University 4.8 </li>
<li>Yale University 4.8 </li>
<li>Columbia University 4.7 </li>
<li>University of Michigan–Ann Arbor 4.7 </li>
<li>New York University 4.6 </li>
<li>University of Virginia 4.6 </li>
<li>Cornell University 4.5 </li>
<li>Duke University 4.5 </li>
<li>Northwestern University 4.5 </li>
<li>University of California–Berkeley 4.5 </li>
<li>University of Chicago 4.5 </li>
<li>Georgetown University 4.4 </li>
<li>University of Pennsylvania 4.4 </li>
<li>Vanderbilt University 4.3 </li>
<li>Washington University in St. Louis 4.3 </li>
<li>University of Texas–Austin 4.2 </li>
<li>Boston University 4.1 </li>
<li>Emory University 4.1 </li>
<li>University of California–Los Angeles 4.1 </li>
<li>University of Minnesota–Twin Cities 4.1 </li>
<li>University of Notre Dame 4.1 </li>
<li>University of Southern California 4.1 </li>
<li>Washington and Lee University 4.1 </li>
<li>Boston College 4.0 </li>
<li>University of Iowa 4.0 </li>
<li>University of North Carolina–Chapel Hill 4.0</li>
</ol>

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<p>Those ratings are in line with past Law firm recruiters ratings. In corporate circles, Michigan Law is often rated among the 5.</p>

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<p>I had been under the impression that this was the “College Search & Selection” sub-forum.</p>

<p>M has always been a reputable and respectable law school. This ranking reflects the prevalence of its enduring status–which may be anachronistic these days, at any rate.</p>

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<p>kwu, I do not think it is anachronistic. The recruiter rating matches the Law Peer Assessment rating and lawyer/judges ratings, not just for Michigan, but for all law schools. As you can see, the top 14 are generally the same in slightly varrying order.</p>

<p>Law School Dean Peer Rating:

  1. Harvard University 4.8
  2. Yale University 4.8
  3. Columbia University 4.7
  4. Stanford University 4.7
  5. University of Chicago 4.7
  6. University of Michigan 4.6
  7. New York University 4.5
  8. University of California-Berkeley 4.5
  9. University of Pennsylvania 4.4
  10. University of Virginia 4.4
  11. Cornell University 4.2
  12. Duke University 4.2
  13. Georgetown University 4.2
  14. Northwestern University 4.1
  15. University of Texas-Austin 4.1</p>

<p>Lawyers and Judges Rating

  1. Harvard University 4.8
  2. Stanford University 4.8
  3. Yale Universoty 4.8
  4. Columbia University 4.7
  5. University of Chicago 4.7
  6. University of Virginia 4.6
  7. University of Pennsylvania 4.5
  8. New York University 4.4
  9. University of California-Berkeley 4.4
  10. University of Michigan-Ann Arbor 4.4
  11. Cornell University 4.3
  12. Duke University 4.3
  13. Georgetown University 4.3
  14. Northwestern University 4.3</p>

<p>Law Firm Recruiters Rating

  1. Harvard University 4.9
  2. Stanford University 4.8
  3. Yale University 4.8
  4. Columbia University 4.7
  5. University of Michigan–Ann Arbor 4.7
  6. New York University 4.6
  7. University of Virginia 4.6
  8. Cornell University 4.5
  9. Duke University 4.5
  10. Northwestern University 4.5
  11. University of California–Berkeley 4.5
  12. University of Chicago 4.5
  13. Georgetown University 4.4
  14. University of Pennsylvania 4.4 </p>

<p>Composite Average

  1. Harvard University 4.83
  2. Yale University 4.80
  3. Stanford University 4.77
  4. Columbia University 4.70
  5. University of Chicago 4.63
  6. University of Michigan 4.57
  7. University of Virginia 4.53
  8. New York University 4.50
  9. University of California-Berkeley 4.47
  10. University of Pennsylvania 4.43
  11. Cornell University 4.33
  12. Duke University 4.33
  13. Georgetown University 4.30
  14. Northwestern University 4.30</p>
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<p>Nothing new here, really. Michigan’s been very near the top of the heap in the law school world for generations. As have the others at the top of this list, except NYU, a relative newcomer, but they’ve been up there for probably close to a couple of decades now.</p>

<p>I do think these figures go some distance, however, to debunk the myth propagated by some on CC that top law firms look only to “T14” law schools. In this survey the difference between #13 and #16 is negligible; the difference between #15 and #17 is negligible; and the difference between #17 and #24 is negligible. In fact, there’s as big a separation between #1 Harvard and #8 Cornell/Duke/Northwestern/Boalt/Chicago as there is between those schools and #18-#24.</p>

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<p>NLJ250 2010 graduate placement rank (USNWR rank) School Placement/Average Class Size, Percentage, First-year and associates promoted to partners, Tuition</p>

<p>1 (5) Chicago 115/195, 58.97%, 142, $44,757
2 (13) Cornell 112/192, 58.33%, 124, $49,020
3 (4) Columbia 239/433, 55.20%, , $48,004
4 (7) Penn 145/272, 53.31%, 164, $46,514</p>

<p>===50% cutoff===</p>

<p>5 (2) Harvard 287/577, 49.74%, 338, $45,026
6 (10) UVA 175/374, 46.79%, 198, $43,800
7 (7) Berkeley 135/296, 45.61%, 148, $48,152
8 (11) Northwestern 126/284, 44.37%, 145, $47,472
9 (6) NYU 209/483, 43.27%, 267, $46,196
10 (9) Michigan 158/372, 42.47%, 192, $46,250
11 (3) Stanford 72/173, 41.62%, 82, $44,121</p>

<p>===40% cutoff===</p>

<p>12 (11) Duke 81/213, 38.03%, 98, $45,271
13 (14) Georgetown 242/644, 37.58%, 295, $43,750
14 (15) UCLA 123/350, 35.14%, 142, $45,967
15 (1) Yale 67/198, 33.84%, 77, $48,340
16 (28) Boston College 89/265, 33.58%, 107, $39,600
17 (22) Boston University 81/270, 30.00%, 100, $39,658</p>

<p>===30% cutoff===</p>

<p>18 (17) Vanderbilt 62/208, 29.81%, 76, $44,074
19 (18) USC 56/195, 28.72%, 69, $46,264
20 (15) Texas 101/379, 26.65%, 123, $42,814
21 (34) Fordham 123/479, 25.68%, 143, $44,996
22 (20) GWU 127/513, 24.76%, 164, $42,205
23 (22) Notre Dame 41/172, 23.84%, 48, $39,320
24 (22) Emory 54/255, 21.18%, 65, $41,376 </p>

<p>“At the University of Michigan Law School, 42 of the 372 graduates in 2010 took clerkships”</p>

<p>I’m not questioning whether M has a good reputation, but whether it still deserves it today. To use bclintonk’s expression, M has been well-regarded for generations, but it so happens that all those deans, judges, lawyers, and recruiters surveyed have been around for generations too.</p>

<p>Okay, fine, ~53.76 percent of M’s class has something to look forward to. What about the rest?</p>

<p>[We</a> Knew This Was Going to Happen: Michigan Encourages Law Grads to go to India Above the Law: A Legal Tabloid - News, Gossip, and Colorful Commentary on Law Firms and the Legal Profession](<a href=“http://abovethelaw.com/2010/06/we-knew-this-was-going-to-happen-michigan-encourages-law-grads-to-go-to-india/]We”>We Knew This Was Going to Happen: Michigan Encourages Law Grads to go to India - Above the Law)</p>

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<p>“To use bclintonk’s expression, M has been well-regarded for generations, but it so happens that all those deans, judges, lawyers, and recruiters surveyed have been around for generations too.”</p>

<p>kwu, Judges are the group that rate Michigan Law the lowest, at #8 in the nation. Law School deans rate Michigan Law #6 and Law Firm recruiters rank Michigan #4. Are you saying that Law School deans and Law firm recruiters are also out of touch with modern realities?</p>

<p>“At the University of Michigan Law School, 42 of the 372 graduates in 2010 took clerkships”</p>

<p>Where did you get that figure kwu? Not that it is bad mind you. It is in fact better than I thought. According to your figure above, 11% of Michigan Law graduates take clerships. According to the USNWR, it is 14%. At Harvard Law, 19% take clerkships, 11% at Columbia, 16% at Duke, 13% at Chicago, 12% at Northwestern and a whopping 23% at Stanford. At you suggesting that all those Law programs are overrated and not worthy of their lofty reputations?</p>

<p>You seem to have a problem with Michigan Law in particular. While Michigan is clearly not as strong in Law as it was in the 70s or 80s (it used to be be ranked clearly among the top 3 in the US), it is still considered one of the top 10 Law schools in the nation, and that’s not about to change. Michigan Law has one of the largest endowments, a huge library, excellent facilities and one of the top Law faculties.</p>

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<p>“At you suggesting that all those Law programs are overrated and not worthy of their lofty reputations?”</p>

<p>In all due seriousness? Yes.</p>

<p>Law school is a dangerous investment these days.</p>

<p>I don’t have a problem with Michigan in particular. The OP opened the discussion–if there is one to be had–with the observation that “UofMichiganites must be very happy with the climb of their alma mater.” I decided to respond to it–that’s all.</p>

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<p>kwu, can you please defined “school placement” and “graduate placement rank”?</p>

<p>thanks</p>

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<p>National Law Journal 250 - “the largest 250 law firms in the U.S.”
[ILRG</a> Largest 250 Law Firms in the US](<a href=“http://www.ilrg.com/nlj250]ILRG”>350 Largest Law Firms in the US (2019) - PublicLegal)</p>

<p>School placement: number of students from the class of 2010 employed as first-year associates at one of these 250 firms.</p>

<p>Graduate placement rank: ranking according to the metric school placement/average class size.</p>

<p>The ranking doesn’t take into account number of students pursuing clerkships or public interest work.</p>

<p>Source: [LAW</a> SCHOOLS REPORT](<a href=“http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNLJ.jsp?id=1202483173162&LAW_SCHOOLS_REPORT]LAW”>http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNLJ.jsp?id=1202483173162&LAW_SCHOOLS_REPORT)</p>

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<p>

</p>

<p>Then…I would assume that there is very little meaning to the rankings?</p>

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<p>kwu, if you are suggesting that the legal profession is not as lucrative as it used to be or that attending a top Law school is not a sure path to financial success, then I totally agree with you. I thought you were isolating Michigan Law in particular.</p>

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<p>

</p>

<p>Um . . . OK. And what is that supposed to tell us, exactly? If we’re assuming most law grads WANT to work at one of the 250 largest firms, I think that’s almost certainly a mistaken assumption.</p>

<p>Look at Yale Law School’s “placement rate” by this metric. Only 33.84% of YLS grads took jobs with the 250 largest firms, yet YLS is widely regarded as the top law school in the country. (Well, Harvard grads would probably tell you Yale’s #2). Does that mean only 33.84% of YLS grads were ABLE to get jobs at the largest law firms? Of course not. Because it’s such a highly regarded law school, and because it has such a small graduating class (approximately 1/3 the size of Harvard’s), YLS grads generally have their pick of the best jobs in the country. Lots of top-shelf legal employers will say, “Well, we have four entry-level jobs to fill and we want only the best, so we’ll take two from Harvard and two from Yale,” but since there are 3 times as many Harvard grads, that means the Yale grads have, at the individual level, a huge competitive advantage. And guess what? Many YLS grads choose NOT to work for the largest law firms. </p>

<p>Many go to judicial clerkships, of course. Some go straight to the Justice Department. Those who want to be prosecutors find jobs with the various U.S. Attorney’s offices, or with county prosecutors in major jurisdictions. Many opt for smaller “boutique” firms that do interesting and intellectually challenging work in a specialized field like intellectual property, or “cause” lawyering like civil rights litigation. Quite a few go into investment banking. Some go straight into law teaching (that’s what Bill Clinton did), or perhaps take a fellowship somewhere to further develop their scholarship before going into teaching (that’s what Hillary Clinton did). Some continue on to get a Ph.D. in another field so as to be able to pursue interdisciplinary "law-and . . . " studies, or pursue an advanced law degree at another institution. A sizable number go into legal services, or work for public interest organizations of various kinds. Some end up on Capitol Hill. Some work for international agencies. Some prefer to return to their hometowns and work at medium-sized firms, or go home to join the family business. Some take jobs as in-house counsel at major corporations or government agencies. Some end up at law firms in London, Paris, Hong Kong, or Singapore that don’t show up on the list of 250 largest U.S. firms.</p>

<p>In short, the idea that the percentage of a top law school’s graduates taking jobs at the largest law firms tells us anything at all about their career prospects is total nonsense.</p>

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<p>^^^bclintonk, fully agree - you beat me to it. I was slowly approaching to say the same thing when I posted this:</p>

<p>"Then…I would assume that there is very little meaning to the rankings? "</p>

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<p>HS Senior here, interested in both business school and law school after undergrad…but scared about the job prospects after going to law school.</p>

<p>I think that being a lawyer would be fun and interesting and would definitely keep me on my toes. But I also like business/finance a lot and it seems a lot more stable/reliable than law. </p>

<p>I might take the LSAT and apply to the top, top law schools (like Harvard, Yale, Columbia, Stanford, Chicago, not much more outside of this). Don’t want to sound like a snob, and I know the nickname is T14, but there appears to be such a glut of lawyers and will be for a long, long time. </p>

<p>And going to one of the above 5 schools doesn’t guarantee success, you still have to network well and work your tail off in the classroom. </p>

<p>Probably going to stick with business though. I would have to give up lawyer jokes if I became a lawyer!</p>

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<p>wildan, you can go to law school, practice corporate law, then go into business…Some of the top Merger and Acquisition professionals at Investment Banks originally practiced law…</p>

<p>Bruce Wasserstein is one name that comes to mind.</p>

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<p>I love Bruce. I wonder where he went to college? ;)</p>

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<p>Students at YHS make up an entirely different specie. As you yourself assert, bclintonk, they have the luxury of choice.</p>

<p>For those who end up at the other law schools, who, for the most part, don’t have this luxury of choice, many look forward to lucrative biglaw employment,–the sensible ones, at any rate–and those who get it thank their lucky stars.</p>

<p>Only 1 or 2 percent of law school graduates end up pursuing academia, whose market is terrifyingly competitive–you can’t deny. And one doesn’t waste three more years of one’s life and take out 200k+ in loans just to go into I-Banking or to pursue irrelevant advanced degrees, the latter of which costs yet more time and money.</p>

<p>I sincerely hope that the 46.24 percent of Michigan’s most recent graduating class, those students who don’t have biglaw jobs or fancy clerkships, are doing what they want, have something to do at all.</p>

<p>These rankings are helpful for evaluating the non-YHS law schools.</p>

<p>(Again, I’m not bashing M in particular. Harvard College is the most prestigious undergraduate institution in the country, no doubt, and no one will complain even though fewer than two-thirds of its graduating classes has employment at graduation time. Likewise, Michigan is a well-respected law school, and the fate of its law students won’t, [un]fortunately, change that.)</p>

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<p>“And one doesn’t waste three more years of one’s life and take out 200k+ in loans just to go into I-Banking or to pursue irrelevant advanced degrees, the latter of which costs yet more time and money.
I sincerely hope that the 46.24 percent of Michigan’s most recent graduating class, those students who don’t have biglaw jobs or fancy clerkships, are doing what they want, have something to do at all.”</p>

<p>I’m sure those Michigan grads are doing what they want to do. Michigan is a very prestigious law school. It certainly is on par with CCN or perhaps YHS with regards to biglaw. Though maybe not on par with YHS when it comes to clerkship, academia, PI, etc., but certainly on par with CCN with regards to those areas. No idea why Chicago was given such low ratings.</p>

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</p>

<p>I actually don’t think this is the case. Hard to prove empirically, of course. But in my life’s experience and according to friends who follow these things closely out of professional necessity, a huge fraction of the people who go to law school do so with the hope and expectation of working in some kind of public service/public interest job. Many of them are forced into the private sector legal market by economic necessity once they figure out that’s the only way they can pay off their law school and undergrad loans. But the ones who “thank their lucky stars,” as you put it, are often those who manage to land the most attractive public service/public interest jobs—which are often harder to get than BigLaw jobs, by the way—and have managed their finances in such a way that they can afford to do that work. </p>

<p>And beyond that, there are a ton of law grads from places like Michigan, Texas, even Harvard and Yale, who are perfectly content to work at mid-sized firms in mid-sized markets where they can do interesting work and make a handsome living without putting in the grueling hours expected of them at the giant NY-, DC-, and LA-based law firms where associates are basically just fodder to generate mega-profits for the partners, and where only a tiny fraction of the associates have any realistic chance of making partner before being pushed out the door. To a lot of law students, those BigLaw jobs are not the least bit attractive. </p>

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</p>

<p>The legal academic market is probably the most competitive segment of the overall legal market, but the percentage of graduates of the top law schools who go into academia is much higher than 1 or 2%. You won’t find a lot of Brooklyn or Cardozo or even Fordham law grads in academia. But you’ll find a respectable slice of the class at Columbia or NYU going into academia; and of course, an even bigger fraction at Harvard and Yale. Michigan is a well-respected “producer” school for legal academics, roughly comparable to Columbia in that regard, definitely behind Yale, Harvard, Chicago, and Stanford, but well ahead of, say, Duke, Cornell, or probably Penn.</p>

<p>Because the market for legal academics is so competitive, it’s actually become quite commonplace for people seeking to go that route to simultaneously or sequentially pursue a Ph.D. in another discipline, e.g., history, economics, philosophy, or political science. It takes longer to be sure, but on the plus side the Ph.D. program is usually fully funded through fellowships and the like; it puts the joint degree holder in a stronger competitive position to market unique interdisciplinary skills that may be attractive to law schools; in some cases it leads to joint appointments in a law school and another department at the same university, saving both the law school and the other department money; and in contrast to going for a straight history, philosophy, or political science Ph.D., the fallback if the academic dream doesn’t pan out is not driving a cab or delivering pizza, but probably a pretty lucrative living as a lawyer. </p>

<p>As for I-banking, all I can say is you’d be surprised how many graduates of top law schools go that route. Maybe it’s disillusionment with the law, maybe they’re in law school only by default because they couldn’t figure out what they really wanted to do with their lives, maybe they realize during law school that they’re really better suited to I-banking than to lawyering, maybe I-banking offers a different kind of adrenaline rush and the prospect of untold wealth that makes a partnership at a law firm look pedestrian by comparison. But whatever the reason, it does happen with some frequency. And keep in mind, a sizable fraction of those who attend top law schools, probably 50% or more, aren’t worried about the loans, because they don’t have any.</p>