…it’s a cruel, cruel world; life just isn’t fair, is it kluge. :(</p>
<p>
…PH, I couldn’t have said it better. It has been much the same for me. It is very difficult to become comfortable with your own opinions in the little tête-à-tête we have here. It is not good enough to remain sentimentally attached to “a reflection of my parents’ childrearing styles, my body chemistry,” etc. And if you are sentimentally attached to a pov, the café is certainly not the place for you. It may be time to “just say no to the temptation,” give yourself a hug, look into the mirror with such a validating affirmation as, “I’m Good Enough, I’m Smart Enough, and Doggone It, People Like Me!” :)</p>
<p>In the final analysis one must conclude that those of us who are offended or “put out” by others’ attacks on our points of view are in it for self-glory (that ugly “ego” term) rather than for the betterment of the discussion at hand. </p>
<p>One questions how someone can take it “personally” when one’s person is not on trail. The argument is what is important, and the pros and cons that go with it – not the people delivering those points of view.</p>
<p>Are we intellectuals or psuedo-intellectuals?</p>
<p>I completely agree that it’s fair to attack the message but not the messenger. I agree, too, that ridicule should be avoided because it smacks of a personal attack. However, I draw a distinction between power and ridicule, especially on the internet. Ridicule is hurtful in person or online. On the other hand, logical arguments are powerful. The only way you have power over me on the internet is when you make a more convincing argument - such as when you properly corrected me after I misstated the scope of autism spectrum disorders on the Autism thread. In my view, “powerful” in this context is a good thing.</p>
<p>DRJ, I know our political stances typically differ, but you have never once been rude or disrespectful in presenting an alternative viewpoint, and never resort to ad hominems. I appreciate that a great deal.</p>
<p>The air is becoming a bit thick with sanctimony here, perhaps! I’d like to point out this meaningful (?) contribution to debate, which I believe was one of the meanest things I’ve read here:</p>
<p>That, along with TD’s calling one of my posts (or was it me?) “icky,” and the OP’s “unintentional” ridicule of my religion, are my personal top three, though I’m sure we all have our favorites.</p>
<p>Personally, I’d rather be told to go and eat some cookies. :)</p>
</i>
<p>No sanctimony here. I call it like I see it. I own the comment about it being odd that a 19 year old likes to hang out with the old folks. I stand by it too. If my 19 year old were hanging around with a bunch of parents on a message board, I’d think it odd, even if I really like the contributions of said 19 year old, most of the time, except when said 19 year old calls me “irrational” or “hysterical” (which is fairly constant, I might add).</p>
<p>Again, a person might not like the arguments, and might think the arguments are hysterical, but quit belitting the poster.</p>
<p>Nice Stuart Smalley quote, FS. I don’t think it’s at all odd that you want to chat with the old folks–it actually shows a certain youthful humility, i.e., it’s ok to trust people over 30.</p>
<p>I would liken my own feelings regarding “tone” in the Parents Cafe to tennis. I believe in matching a person’s pace, and I understand exactly what Cheers means by “power.” To mix metaphors for a second: I love fishing, but shooting fish in a barrel is neither sportsmanlike, nor fun. I avoid debating with the chronically miffed, and if find myself accidentally engaged with such, I throw them back. However, if you constantly attack with your chin, expect to get jabbed.</p>
<p>To return to the tennis metaphor: I will hit the ball back to you just as hard as you hit it to me; I will match your pace. If you catch me with a great shot, don’t be surprised if I land a hard cross-court right on the corner and then pass you on the next shot. If you show me that you have a game, you’re going to get a game–but I’m a club player, and I want to be able to sit down and have a drink with you afterwards. On the other hand, if your game consists of rushing the net and then mooning me, well…you’re going to get hard topspin right where the sun don’t shine. Odds are, if you think I’ve been hard on you, it’s because I respect you. Otherwise, I’d probably just ignore you.</p>
<p>Okay, Driver, I see your point (I guess my score with you is Love-Forty). What you and Cheers describe as power I consider a matter of tone that is fluid, discretionary and governed by personalities. I know this is quibbling but I still think that power comes from presenting logical, well-founded arguments and that we don’t have to be eloquent to be persuasive. Clearly the ability to write well helps but, given my skill level, I certainly hope it’s not conclusive.</p>
<p>Anyway, Cheers, I also apologize to you for quibbling over this.</p>
<p>Liz, check your PM box. I responded to your last a few days late and you may have missed it upon your return.</p>
<p>Digi, my friend, I’m sorry but I won’t join you: I am compelled to fight them on the landing grounds and the airfields and across the fabric of space-time and in those niches of the on-line world that are my home. Giving up would be akin to letting roaches win for possession of your house. (I sense some antennae quivering in my direction already.)</p>
<p>Thank G-d for TheDad. I would have hated to resort to sheets discussions completely, and I really hate roaches.</p>
<p>I guess being the recipient of near constant pummeling by Driver can be taken as a compliment. Who knew? I love tennis analogies though, and am pleased to know what a good thwack from Driver really means.</p>
<p><…I still think that power comes from presenting logical, well-founded arguments and that we don’t have to be eloquent to be persuasive.></p>
<p>As an outsider and newbie, I can tell you that I think power, if any, here comes not from the argument, but from the “bon mot.” I have watched many times as potential posters have been turned away because of their not being up to the level of required CC patois and inside humor.</p>
<p>For example, it’s been assumed by many that I should be familiar with the views and personalities of digmedia, or curmudgeon, or TD, or any number of other posters. How could I be, as a new poster? It’s almost like a little club for which one has to pass certain requirements to join. We need to pay our dues, first, and then we graduate from being “new” to “junior” or “senior” members? </p>
<p>I kind of think that’s a shame, as I’m quite sure most of the new people trying to break in have something to offer and that fresh viewpoints should be welcome. Oh, occasionally one reads a “welcome” from someone to a new poster, but even that greeting simply accentuates the club aspect.</p>
<p>For that reason, I still find the idea that some of you find it acceptable to assign “power” to yourselves or certain others rather elitist (for want of a better word).</p>
I know exactly what you mean, HH. When I broke in, I used to call “them” the “CC Celebrity Poster Clique.” Led by a voluble self-styled Alpha-doggie with a pirate fetish and a fear of roaches.</p>
<p>It’s not a club, it’s a community. You make your own space. You’re doing fine…Welcome!</p>
<p>Believe me, the bon mot is no defense on the open sea. Everything is fair game (as you have already observed). I myself have been posting here two and a half years and I am still an outsider (age restrictions & religious handicaps are deemed to negatively affect sea-worthiness). </p>
<p>That’s ok, it suits my flanking maneuvers. My skiff is often faster than their listing river barges overloaded with harrumphing dogma and knock-off clichés. I can see ‘em for miles away, chugging along-- rumps hanging over the stern-- as if they owned the damned sea itself.</p>
<p>Driver: I lead people?! Next thing you know you’ll be casting me as a kind of Robin Hood and CC as Sherwood Forest. Of course, in your epistemology, the Sherrif of Nottingham is one of the Good Guys so it makes a certain amount of twisted sense.</p>
<p>FS: your craft is more like a leaky coracle listing heavily to starboard.</p>
<p>I don’t suffer from monologophobia and that was no cheap copy, being as it was an improved specific image with a subtext, i.e., starboard = Right (but incorrect). </p>
<p>Anyway, please your craft is sinking and I advise that you do something other than use your lead-lined life preserver.</p>