<p>I haven’t been involved in a post in a long time where my posts were jumped on so quickly. I do have a differing oppinion. It is somewhere in the middle, but apparently the middle ground is a rather thin strip of real estate. I agree with jamimom’s post. I know there are problems in military recruiting, but I don’t think all military recruiters are agents of the devil. I am in total disagreement with the action in Iraq. I think it’s a horrible waste of human life on both sides. I also think it’s a mistake to villainize the military and see all recruits as victims.</p>
<p>driver:</p>
<p>LOL~ you hit the nail on the head. We were really careful not to get hurt when we lived in Europe, as they simply scooped injured motorists off the side of the road onto a gurney and tossed them into a van. No EMTs, no backboards, no stabilizing equipment, just a really fast ride to the hospital. And we had 2 engineers cleaning our house because there was no work available. Also, here in America we educate EVERYONE, and our scores reflect it. In Europe only those in the Lyceum are college bound, the others head to a variety of well-respected trade schools at the middle school level. As I said “Those who think that Europe is a peaceful land of plenty where socialism has cured the ills of society have not lived there.”</p>
<p>if we educate everyone- why are our literacy rates lower than countries like Costa Rica?
Why is our math and science preparation way behind about 20 other countries?
In Seattle for example, we have one of the highest rates of education in the country but students are having to take remedial classes in college, that should not be acceptable.</p>
<p>“Government corruption [in Europe] is a way of life.”</p>
<p>We don’t need corruption in our federal government - we have New Jersey for that. [smiley face!]</p>
<p>American education SUCKS</p>
<p>thats why businesses are exporting work, because they cant find enough qualified americans</p>
<p>as for the economic situation, I don’t see anything wrong with having a 40 hour workweek, 10 weeks paid vacation and middle class quality of life</p>
<p>the institutional unemployment rate of around 5-9% exists in Canada and Europe specifically because the cost of hiring is higher than in the US where you can pay someone 5.15 and expect them to live on that wage.</p>
<p>Canada and Europe are the penultimate in terms of the traditional measures of quality of life.</p>
<p>we have one of the most bloated and inefficient privatized healthcare systems in the world. Only 60% of what we spend on healthcare actually goes to healthcare, the rest goes to paperwork which is where all those insurance and big pharma benefit.</p>
<p>Sure, England has waiting lists for treatment, but thats only because they spend about 1/3 of what we spend on healthcare per capita.</p>
<p>Europeans are on average, smarter, healthier and have a better quality of life than americans. Aslo the gulf between the rich and the poor is much less thn what it is in the US where the gap has been increasing since the 1960’s.</p>
<p>for my money, europe is the place to be!</p>
<p>
I think Momof1’s point about educating “EVERYONE” is that in our system, there is no winnowing process as there is in much of Europe. So you’re comparing elite students from foreign countries who are taking an IB curriculum with an American group that includes, say, North Philadelphia public schools. If you don’t do well in your early testing, you’re heading for a trade school and (if you’re lucky) a job with Uncle Pierre’s plumbing business or Tante Louise’s boulangerie. The institutional unemployment rate in France has only dipped below 10% once or twice in the last 10-15 years, and the unemployment rate for those under 25 is currently about 22%. The last time the US saw such rates we called it “The Great Depression.”</p>
<p>There are very few opportunities for second chances if you fall off the education train in Europe–ironically, they are far less warm and fuzzy with their students than we seem to insist our schools be. If your scores are good, you go to college and the government pays for it. If they aren’t, it’s tough luck. It’s remotely possible that you could attend college later in life, but that is extremely rare, and you will have to pay for it yourself. And most likely, you won’t be able to. I see a lot of quiet desperation in many of the French relatives I visit yearly. Even the Parisien cousins (doctors and lawyers) are amazed to think that their American counterparts can generally pay to send a child to college. The “egalite” is mythical, and the class structure much more rigid. As I said, it’s a great place to visit (or live) if you have money. Kind of like NYC. But unlike NYC, there’s very little room for upward mobility.</p>
<p>I thought it was probably more that we follow “fads” in education.
We don’t teach math like they do in India- we teach fuzzy math that is more about process than getting the right answer
Elementary school teachers often aren’t too comfortable with math or even science anyway, and when the foundation is laid so poorly it isn’t unusual that kids struggle.
I see kids who get great grades in high school, having to take remedial classes, these are US citizens , children of parents with college degrees, but they haven’t learned what they need to learn.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>We don’t educate everyone- students who drop out before they reach high school, aren’t even tracked, and many students are given free rides to graduation, how else could we have so many high school graduates who can’t read?</p>
<p>wow this thread has taken some turns. as for education, I don’t agree that we have the best education systems; both my children got out of high school with absolutely no ability to write, and as far as I am concerned, if you cannot write, you cannot publish, and cannot truly become professional. It took me years of college to learn to write. And as far as healthcare, I recently took care of a gentleman who was from canada; dual citizenship. While he was in canada, he had a stroke. There was no going to the hospital emergently, ct scan within 45 minutes, clot buster medication within 3 hours, etc etc. He had a ct scan months later when it was his turn, and yup, he had a stroke. But too late then. what was done was done. So yes, we have a very beaurocratic and wasteful healthcare system, but we have some fantastic outcomes as far as stroke, heart attacks, pneumonia, trauma, etc. Like the one poster intimated, god help you if you have an accident in another country.</p>
<p>"American education SUCKS</p>
<p>thats why businesses are exporting work, because they cant find enough qualified americans"</p>
<p>It’s true American education SUCKS but that’s not the reason why businesses are exporting work because they can’t find enough qualified americans. Sorry to be the bear of bad news: there are plenty of qualified americans. Look at the skill sets that are now exporting big time by big business, computer or software skill, Indian/Chinese do not excell in this. The last coding competition put the to 10 coders squarely in America Universities(MIT and such). Indian Institute Technology (IIT)came in number 11.
Big business is in the business of making money, therefore it’s cheaper, not necessary better. How can you compete with people that make $1/hour or $1 day for that matter.
Do you watch Lou Dobbs lately?</p>
<p>My two cents as to why our education standards have dropped 1) National Education Association - does anyone really believe that our teachers care about students (there are some exceptions and outstanding teachers) 2) Overpaid teachers (at least in NJ) 3) Special Education classes are draining funds away from school systems [my daughter in grade school had a fellow student who had a full-time aide assigned to him (can you imagine the cost?) - as a taxpayer I wasn’t even allowed to ask what the child’s problem was/is). Our education system is out of control due to poor management, greedy teachers, mandates from Washington to spend a disproportionate amount of $$$ on a small number of children. And now with autism (and I"m sympathetic) people are moving to towns that have good autism programs and bankrupting their systems. So the average to good student gets the short end of the stick . Oh, with open borders we are educating children who aren’t citizens and are illegal. Where I live we aren’t even allowed to ask if they are legal. Think about this - an illegal alien living in California gets to pay in-state rates while I would have to pay out-of-state rates. Are we going mad??</p>
<p>The US system is one of everyone should go to college. In Europe, you have to earn that privilege. Only the cream of the crop get to go. By 6th grade, kids are tracked and only the “scholars” are put on the college track. The rest may receive technical training, or be apprenticed out. They are no longer in school when testing is done, or in a school that is exempt from the testing, because they are not on the same track. So our test scores, with special ed students, non-English speakers, low achievers, etc. included are compared against the scores of only the elite kids in Europe. And even the “scholars” then must pass a rigorous test to get into college. If they don’t pass, then they don’t go. As to the quality of our educational system, I have a different viewpoint than many. I practiced law for many years, and went back into teaching when I felt I really needed to make a difference. Seeing things from outside in as a student, then a parent, then a corporate perpective from the inside out has given me a great deal more insight than I had before. I can easily say that if a child really wants an education it is available. I don’t know of a single teacher who wouldn’t jump through hoops for a child that showed interest and motivation. Teachers live for that. That is why they are teaching. I have encountered a huge dichotomy between what people say that they want from education, and what they really want. There is a fair percentage of parents that say they want their kids to get a good education, but in reality, they badger and threaten treachers who uphold standards. They complain if the amount of work is too much (as they see it) or if the teacher is “too hard.” There is a real sense of “I had to work so hard, but I want it easier for my kids.” They really want an A without all that it should entail. Case in point: an excellent AP government teacher who has a track record of numerous 5’s and 4s from her students, was constantly berated by parents because their kids had to “work too hard” in her class. The phone calls she received! The number of meetings she had to attend! They didn’t care about her track record - what better way to evaluate her than by the number of her students who received 5s on the AP test? She is an AP grader, and has helped develop the course as well as will now be working on the new curriculum and helping draft future questions. Yet, these same parents who gave her so much grief were the same ones that said our schools aren’t good enough, that their kids weren’t learning enough. What they really meant was that the teacher wasn’t doing everyhting for their children, and somehow placing the material into their brains without the child’s effort, and giving them the knowledge ot get a 5 on the AP test! Interestingly, it was these kids who did not take the AP test. Many of them were in the class meerely to bolster their GPA, and couldn’t care less about taking the AP test. I recently had a parent call the principal because I would not extend time for a Major Oral test (that I had assigned 2 weeks earlier) for her child, because she wouldn’t have the time to do it over the weekend before it was due since she was going to the county fair! And this is just one of MANY stories like this. It is interesting, but at my age, I have come to accept that everyone has lied sometime in their lives. It is amazing to me how many parents believe their child never lies. The onus is solely on the teacher, with few expectations on the part of the student. (At least that is what the journalists and government say, whether they realize it or not.) This is not to say that our system is perfect - it isn’t - but neither is Europe’s. Here, teachers have to be gentle about what they have to say, yet in Europe, teachers can lay it on the line, and don’t ever worry about the self-esteem of the student. Plus, schools are for academics over there, not sports. If someone wants to play, they join private leagues or clubs. There is no school spirit, no clubs like we have. Our bureaucracy needs to be changed and streamlined, because teachers are being made to do so much more than teach. Many good teachers are leaving because of all of this. They just want to teach, but society, parents, and the system make it more and more difficult to do that.</p>
<p>“Do you watch Lou Dobbs lately?”</p>
<p>I do, it does get VERY VERY VERY VERY repetitive so instead I’ve switched over to inside politics</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>That’s wrong. In Germany we test all kids even those who receive a technical training or make an apprenticeship. By the way, I taught at an American college and in my opinion it is not more than a European apprenticeship education. The real university education starts at grad school.
I dont know which system is better. Fact is, that the education systems are totally different and difficult to compare, therefore I don’t believe in such comparison tests.</p>
<p>sempitern555, sorry for the rhetoric, I don’t watch TV either, occasionally I did watch and caught certain segments and they sticked in my head(lol).</p>
<p>I’m wondering if any of the people who state that “in Europe, only the elite students go to university” (or words to that effect) actually have any recent experience of the various systems? From the mass generalisations going on on this thread, you’d be forgiven for assuming that Europe has a single unified education system!</p>
<p>I can’t speak for the whole of Europe, but in the UK, the elite students go to elite universities, and the “less elite” go to correspondingly “less elite” universities/get jobs/training. Same as in the US - I thought!</p>
<p>Laylah, you are very correct. It is all very different, from one country to the next. The French system is very constrained - children there are tested and tracked very young, I think at about 9 – the tests they get at that age track their future education, so basically if a kid isn’t doing well by around 4th grade level, he’s off on the vocational path. I think you are right about UK education in general, but in Scotland they call the middle school years “high school”, and there is testing and tracking before kids enter that phase - again between vocational and college prep tracks. But I think in Scotland there are more alternatives for private education open to families. </p>
<p>I don’t have specifics for other countries - these are just little tidbits of information I’ve picked up from friends who live in various places around the world. So even my limited information may be wrong – I can’t really vouch for the difference between a friend griping about the problems her kid is having at the local school vs. country-wide policy.</p>
<p>and… the french have special schools for high level bureaucrats</p>
<p>A timely article.</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/02/opinion/02brooks.html?[/url]”>http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/02/opinion/02brooks.html?</a></p>
<p>Oh, yes, David Brooks warning of the dangers of liberals everywhere. How timely.</p>