Kid vs. Coach (HS Division) - parental role?

Parent Cafe
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<p>I understand how difficult this is for you, I really do. Some thoughts…</p>

<p>I don’t think your daughter is being treated unfairly as your original post states. I don’t think she is owed playing time, as a rule. While I WISH high school sports was merely about opportunities for participation, it usually isn’t, particularly at the varsity level. </p>

<p>While she isn’t “owed” an opportunity for playing time, one would think a coach would make some effort to include each player who made the team in some way. For instance, if they are winning by a comfortable margin, put in other players. If the starting players are getting tired, rotate subs for a short while. So, of course there are things the coach COULD do, but doesn’t HAVE to do. </p>

<p>I wouldn’t go as a parent to a coach about the issue of playing time. I don’t think that is appropriate on that particular issue. I did not get a sense that the coach is outright humiliating your daughter in how he talks to her, but simply that she FEELS humiliated by the experience she is having with so little playing time. Those are not the same thing. If a coach ridiculed my kid or spoke to her in very humiliating ways in front of others, I would ask to speak to him. But that is NOT the case here. In this case, your D does need to advocate for herself. The way she should do that is to ask, “what are some things you’d like to see me work on or improve that might get me some playing time?” or something of that sort. Rather than complain, come across as ambitious and motivated to want to do whatever it takes in his eyes. </p>

<p>I have no idea what she said when she spoke to him and am very curious as to the specific feedback she got…what did he say to her? I don’t know what brought the discussion to such an emotional level involving crying. So, without more information, it is hard to comment. If he was demeaning in some way, that is a concern. You just say it wasn’t a helpful discussion.</p>

<p>You say she should have a chance to “prove herself” but I think she gets that chance in daily practices. During practices, she could ask questions…like “I’ve been trying hard to improve my dribbling…how am I doing?” or “What do you suggest that I work on?” or “I’ve been doing mile runs to build up my stamina, have you noticed any difference? What else might you suggest I do?” I have no idea what skill areas he may feel need work, just giving examples. She could come across as very motivated and determined and seeking advice for improvement. By pointing out the work she is putting in and asking what more she should do, she brings that to his attention. </p>

<p>One thing, however, that I don’t get. She was CAPTAIN last year and played most of every game. She must be a leader and well liked by the other soccer players and must be pretty good if she played the entire game last year. Is she now with many of the same girls on this team? What do they think of the fact that she is mostly benched? Have they been talking amongst themselves about being unhappy that some girls get no playing time? Are they commenting that they are so tired out because of the lack of using subs? I mean my kid played varsity soccer in high school and they did use subs. The top players played more than other players but all were used and needed. Top players needed brief breaks. If the other girls think this, maybe as a group in a team meeting they can bring up that they wish there was some substitutions and ask what the coach thinks. In other words, as a group, they can be giving feedback too. I don’t know if your D feels alone on this issue or if other girls on the team feel the same. How close is the team? Your D is a former captain so I’d imagine other girls do care about her. What is the mood of the team with this coach? Is it just that your D is disappointed about playing time or is there general dissatisfaction of the group as a whole? If it is the former, it is a life lesson though difficult on a parent’s heartstrings. Teaching her how to deal with it, plus also how to advocate, will have long term affects. But if it is the latter, then talk to your D about talking with her teammates about how they might as a group approach the coach about the rotating of players for parts of the game, etc. </p>

<p>Sorry this has been upsetting. Learning how to cope, however, has benefits in the long run.</p>

<p>By the way, as I said, if the only issue with the coach is lack of playing time…don’t talk to him as a parent about that. However, I don’t know if you have an ongoing rapport with the coach. I know we attended all games and often there were friendly comments after a game. Plus the team had weekly pot lock dinners for team building where the parents included. If you know this person, after a game, you could always say something like, “good game…the girls played very well…some were looking pretty tired or ragged near the end…” without ever mentioning your D.</p>

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<p>I’ll chime in, as the mother of children who have both ridden the pine and been stars (son was star, daughter rode the pine after making the JV soccer team). Stay out of it vis a vis the coach (but don’t hesitate to support and counsel your daughter as you are doing!). Unless there is a question of abuse. </p>

<p>These are life lessons, just like having bad teachers, unfair teachers, etc. etc. It is a good idea to strategize with your daughter, to encourage her to work extra hard in practice, come early, etc. A couple of private sessions with a good private coach can also work wonders to improve skills, as well as conditioning outside of practice. </p>

<p>I think that most kids have an innate sense of fairness. If the girls see your daughter as a skilled player who is not getting her fair share of playing time, they will side with your daughter. If they see her as a player who made the team but has to improve her skills in order to get playing time, they will resent her more for her getting into games if she isn’t up to the task.</p>

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<p>Im wondering if last year she was a soph when she was captain of the jv team and this year she is a junior- playing with seniors?
Seniors normally get more playing time- especially if they are good enough to be recruited- its part of what everyone has to go through I guess</p>

<p>I like to reserve my venom for the refs ( which I try and restrain- because it backfires- like last week- I swear the opposing team were two years older- they were twice as big anyway, one ran right at my daughter and tried to knock her over & she didn’t even have the ball- the ref saw it but ignored it- my mom reflex kicked in and I yelled at him- which then made him less likely to call fouls on other team)</p>

<p>My D soccer coach- has over the years, taught the girls to make their own decisions on the field- during time outs and half time, they lead the discussion on strategy. But he is really unusual IMO after observing other teams and other coaches. He has always been tremendously supportive of my daughter, even when she would shy away from the ball during a game ( after having a strong practice),and it has eventually paid off, she is now pretty good, and the kids learned a lot about working as a team and supporting each other.</p>

<p>I agree that the time to show your stuff if you want your position or playing time changed is during practice, a game is just like a musical performance- you aren’t going to pick that time to change the tempo or key.</p>

<p>Some coaches, especially at the high school and college level, need to have wins to keep their job. I realize this team doesn’t have a great record, but if the coach is inexperienced, they may not be able to see the big picture about developing a team who is strong in the long run.</p>

<p>Its hard when soccer is your favorite sport- but thankfully, there are lots of sports for young women to participate in now, and lots of different levels.</p>

<p>I also agree that while it is tough to see your kid in a tough situation- the skills and perserverance they learn from working through it- will serve them well later on.
I have seen kids, who have been wrapped in cotton ( not saying your daughter is), but when parents aren’t around to help anymore, they are lost.
I know its really hard though-</p>

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<p>We have had serious problems with playing time, and they started when S#1 was 6 years old. That’s right, his first team at the YMCA had a coach that wouldn’t play him! Truly disgusting. He eventually had a great coach that encouraged him and played him and he was one of the best players on that good rec league team. He played freshman soccer in hs, then JV with very poor coaching. He had limited playing time 1st half of the season, while other kids suffered the second half when my son somehow made it to the coach’s “A” list. Mercifully, in his jr year he was cut from the varsity and ran cross country for 2 years. </p>

<p>Although we did, as a last resort speak to coaches and ADs, since your D said no, you must respect her wishes.</p>

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<p>The one statement that seems to have been in common among all of my kid’s coaches (good and bad ones and various sports) has been–“I will not discuss playing time with parents”. The previous posts about your D asking what she can do to improve or earn more time are right on the mark. Coaches (even poor ones) usually respond well to a player asking for advice.</p>

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<p>Stay out of this.Don’t talk to the coach. Talk with your daughter about how she should approach the coach and how to cope with the situation
This is her issue, not yours</p>

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<p>

[quote]
The one statement that seems to have been in common among all of my kid’s coaches (good and bad ones and various sports) has been–“I will not discuss playing time with parents”. The previous posts about your D asking what she can do to improve or earn more time are right on the mark. Coaches (even poor ones) usually respond well to a player asking for advice.[/]</p>

<p>That was my policy too. Parents are not at practice, and they are obviously not objective nor should they be expected to be. I would gladly discuss playing time with a player provided that the discussion was centered around the question of what can I do to earn playing time? If the conversation was the player complaining about a lack of playing time that was only going to guarantee they wouldn’t get any. The last thing you can do as a coach is give playing time in response to a kid complaining. It sends the message that all you have to do is complain and you’ll get to play. This is not to insinuate that your D is whining or complaing.</p>

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<p>Returning to this thread I see that your comment about humiliation referred to not getting any playing time and as such, I retract my suggestion to talk to the coach and/or AD. I agree with the others that, while this is a bitter pill to swallow, it is your D’s issue with the coach and she will deal with it in her own way. Role-playing some possible coach<–>D conversations with her might be helpful, but she may not be amenable to that. Good luck.</p>

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<p>just trying to get this quote thing down</p>

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<p>Lots of great feedback here -it seems I’ve touched a nerve. Several points:</p>

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<p>I agree completely. However, what she is owed, I think, is an opportunity to prove herself in a competitive stuation. I don’t agree that this can be truly evaluated in practice.</p>

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<p>Excellent point. I have suggested she talk with her captains; she said they don’t like the coach either, but I don’t think she is willing to ask them to be an advocate on her behalf. But I agree she should at least talk with them about this so they know how she feels. Although they could probably figure it out when she is crying on the bus. Re the crying- she is not a self-confident kid (and this isn’t helping). Having to ask the coach why she isn’t playing just broke her. Yes,this is her problem to work through - but its pretty difficult to watch.</p>

<p>BTW, she is a senior- this is her last shot at a varsity experience (well, except for skiing and lacrosse, which are much less serious programs. But they will help her put this behind her).</p>

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Yes,but its hard to feel part of the team when you are not given the opportunity to contribute.</p>

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<p>I know it is hard, but having lived through some of the same stuff, they do get through it, promise, my youngest, most of her friends do sports, and during season, she isnt part of that group, and she finds that when her friends get on a team, suddenly those teammates take up all her friends time, they get into the team dynamic, and for a time my D was lost as to how to fill time…but this year, it is much better, she connected with friends not on teams, and those on the teams value the “outside of team” friendships more than they did last year…but it was tough and hard for mom…that is when D really started to focus on her own interests </p>

<p>If you look at big time soccer, many players barely play, but they root for the team, help the team train (scrimages)…its the nature of soccer, unfortunatley</p>

<p>my D had a friend who was told, you wil be great on the varisty team, s (she did JV for two years, and was moved up to try out for Var last year)- so went through the gruelling tryouts, was told everyday, great practice, blah blah blah, last day, she was cut, for some snooty sophmores</p>

<p>She felt afterwards that she was kept on the roster during tryouts to “fillout” the scrimage squads so the coaches could see their “faves” play</p>

<p>My youngest was told she was a great lacrosse player, and the coaches couldn’t wait as D is ambidextrous- int he end, cut the last day, and the team turned out to be TALL girls…ah well</p>

<p>My point is HS sports are tough, not always fair, but those that don’t get the chance to really show their stuff, they will move on</p>

<p>I get frustrated when kids are not given the chance, and are equally skilled, but if don’t make it as a freshman, after that,…nada</p>

<p>I have actually told my school, a private school, that none of my donations are to go to sports…nope, they are to go to drama, charity projects, intermurals, art, etc., but I won’t support a system with my $$ that is so closed</p>

<p>call me petty, but there is a principle behind my stance, and my $$ going towards other stuff, showed that at least to me, there is more than just sports, which our HS glorifies to a degree</p>

<p>so now my D does horseback riding, sewing, and photography…and is having a blast</p>

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<p>drb, I feel for you but I have to say that I absolutely do not understand this coach. One or more of my 4 Ds has been playing soccer for the past twenty years. I’ve managed, coached, been a trainer, driver, run practices, fundraised, convened, and just about anything else you can think of for the soccer club where we have lived the longest. It’s the largest club in North America. Two of my Ds have played rep and select, as well as varsity soccer so I’m familiar with competitive play. I’ve never seen a good, well-respected soccer coach bench a player continually for entire games. It’s unkind, and frankly, a stupid move. No matter how well-conditioned players are, even at the rep level (which is lightyears ahead of varsity soccer, in most places), I’ve yet to see a player who could not benefit by being given a rest and subbed for, even for a short time. Most good coaches know how to sub intelligently. It gives the stronger players the rest they need, and the less strong players valuable playing time.</p>

<p>Getting the opportunity to play in scrimmages and practice is absolutely not the same. Game situation play is necessary for every player to get stronger and learn how to improve their competitiveness. No player is ‘owed’ playing time, but they are owed respect and good coaches know how to show that respect.</p>

<p>I honestly don’t know what you should do in this situation because I can totally understand your D’s reluctance to get you involved but I also disagree that this is a ‘life lesson’ for her. The only lesson this conveys is that some adults don’t know how to handle their positions of authority with fairness and respect. I understand if you do not want to intervene during the course of the season but I would certainly make my feelings known, both to the coach and to the AD, at the end of the season.</p>

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<p>

Well, that IS the life lesson. We often can’t change how those around us handle themselves, only how we respond to and handle it.</p>

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<p>alwaysamom,
These are exactly my sentiments. Thank you for presenting them so clearly.</p>

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<p>Drb…Hi again :D. I want to mention that I also agree with AlwaysAMom and everything she said about how the coach SHOULD be coaching. That sentiment doesn’t conflict with the advice as to how to deal with it. As JmMom says, the life lesson is how to deal with this! </p>

<p>I know it is odd to quote my own post :p…but…

</p>

<p>As you can see, I believe that the coach should be utilizing the kids who made varsity or why else did they make varsity? My D’s team played some kids more than others but all played. Subs were used because no way did he keep even the top kids in every single min. of the game. They had to rest a little. So, I agree about what the coach should be doing. But my other advice about how to deal with it still stands, precisely because she is in such a situation. </p>

<p>I’ll share a soccer story with you that is not the same situation as your D is in but involves disappointment and how one may make the most of the situation. In fact, this story was the basis of an entire essay my D wrote for college admissions as it spoke about her and wasn’t really about soccer. My D is a three season varsity sport athlete like your D (soccer, ski racing and tennis). With regard to soccer, she played every single year starting in K. In ninth and tenth grades she was the starting JV goalie. Usually at our HS, the JV has two goalies and the Varsity has two goalies. One can get on Varsity even as a freshman, by the way. For those on JV after tenth grade they try out for Varsity (if they are not already on it) and usually if they don’t make Varsity by 11th grade, they leave the sport…no juniors or seniors stay on with the JV if they don’t get into Varsity. </p>

<p>The year my D was entering her junior year and trying out for Varsity, there was one returning goalie on the Varsity team, a rising senior (who had not been the starting varsity goalie the year before, and the starting goalie had since graduated so this girl would be expected to be starting V goalie the following year). So, my D figured she was trying out for the second goalie spot on Varsity (what everyone expected). All summer, she was on a travel tour across the country with teens. No matter where they were she got up early to run and train for soccer preseason (the directors of that program commented that they couldn’t believe this kid was working out each day on such a very busy travel schedule when NOBODY else in the summer travel program was doing so.) But my D knew what she needed to do to be ready for preseason soccer tryouts back home. </p>

<p>She came back, did preseason, met all the required skill tests (running times, etc. etc.). It went well. Coach names the team and he took NO goalies. She basically was trying out for NO position that existed. People were pretty surprised considering there are always two goalies. A goalie can get hurt or sick or tired. She never imagined he wasn’t taking a goalie. After playing soccer as her fall sport for 11 years, she was out of soccer! It was VERY hard to fathom! It wasn’t like he picked someone over her…he just didn’t take on a new goalie at all. It wasn’t like she hadn’t worked hard enough. She busted her butt and it showed. He made a decision (we do like him as a coach) that I think he later regretted but he could only have 18 girls and he chose to take field players, not a goalie. I think later on, he saw the drawback in having only one goalie. I don’t know what he was thinking he’d do the following year when the top JV goalie (my D) was now out of soccer. It made sense to take her as a junior so as to not lose a goalie he’d need the next year. She knew she’d be second goalie in junior year, no problem. But now she was out of the sport! Most kids, and in fact, EVERY other junior girl who had played JV but who didn’t make V, quit soccer and never returned for tryouts as seniors. The coach took a gamble in losing out the next goalie in line for when he would really need a goalie the next year. </p>

<p>While disppointed by this unexpected turn of events, and being the diehard athlete who couldn’t imagine spending fall without soccer, my D did not wallow in woe. She contacted the youth soccer organization and asked if she could coach. She ended up coaching a fifth/sixth grade girls’ team and LOVED it (she also did some reffing). She had a great time and got so much out of it. The varsity coach was lucky because he did not lose my D (any other rising juniors who did not make varsity, quit the sport and never returned). The following year, my D tried out for varsity again as a senior. She got in and was the starting goalie who played almost all the minutes of every game. She went on to be the goalie in the state Semi Finals. She made Honorable Mention for the region and was invited to participate in the state “senior” classic. The coach was glad that my D came back and didn’t quit the sport and I think he regrets he could have lost this kid due to his not taking a goalie the previous year. </p>

<p>The way my D tells this story in her essay is about making this situation into a win-win. She actually is glad she had that experience. She learned to deal with one of the only rejections in her life (though wasn’t exactly a rejection, but the circumstances of no opening even though she had prepared intensely for it), and she so much loved coaching kids and has held several jobs since then teaching children, including this past summer in France. She turned the situation into a positive. While my heart sunk for her when I got the news that the coach did not take a goalie as expected and that after 11 years she had to sit out of her sport, I don’t think she stayed down for more than a day and she rose up and made the best of it and learned all the while. I don’t wish rejection or disappointment on any kid but learning how to deal with it is a good life lesson. My D’s essay title was her team’s motto which was: “Play Hard or Go Home.” She wrote how she had played hard but she still had to go home. The story she told revealed a lot about her.</p>

<p>I share this with you so that your D might find ways to deal with this situation (I gave you some ideas in an earlier post) and it will be a learning opportunity. As a parent, you understandably hurt for your kid but in the end, she is going to grow stronger by some crappy things that happen.</p>

<p>(PS, my D is now starting Goalie on Brown University’s Club Soccer team that plays intercollegiate games, though she is missing it this fall as she is studying abroad)</p>

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<p>I really do feel for you and your daughter. Hoping for a really enjoyable senior season, this is really hard for both of you. Even when it was my friends’ children who were in that position in high school, it breaks your heart, especially when, as if often true, the kids are wonderful, work hard, never miss a practice, always do their best. All I know is that if you do anything other than support your daughter, and continue to be a good sport, things will only get worse.</p>

<p>Frankly, I don’t agree with your statement that practice doesn’t really show someone’s skills. Honestly, if they are not performing well at practice, it is really unlikely they will do better in a more stressful game situation. </p>

<p>Of course I agree that the BEST coaches find a way to make everyone on the team participate in some way. In a way you have to wonder why a coach names them to the team if the coach isn’t planning on giving them playing time! It would also be nice if the coach would be proactive with you and with your daughter and offer an explanation if the person isn’t playing. Unfortunately, coaches are underpaid and often underappreciated, and also often are doing this as a second or third job, and they aren’t by any stretch perfect–often they have been recruited in desperation because no one was available to coach the team. Unless you are playing at a high school that is known as an “athletic powerhouse”, that is just the nature of the beast.</p>

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<p>drb,</p>

<p>Tell your D to hang in there. I suspect this coach will not be retained, but this in no way makes it easier for your senior D. One of the above posts talked to seniors (based on senority?) get more playing time. I believe this is a myth as another poster mentions that the frosh are getting time over the established seniors. Coaches are all over the map and it’s unfortunate that coaching situations like your Ds arise. </p>

<p>Our D had a similar situation and the life lesson was that adults can be a**holes.</p>

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<p>Sometimes, you just have to look at the big picture when dealing with frustrating and disapointing situations and people- in the grand scheme of things, this is really nothing, it difficult, sure, but it is life</p>

<p>You have to look at the good things in Ds life- she is healthy, generally happy, doing well in school, has good friends, is on the hunt for a college, has two more sports to do, and has all kinds of wonderful things to look forward to</p>

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<p>My son’s senior soccer experience turned him off soccer for good. He was a captain, but was dealing with a coach (newbie) who had little idea of how to manage teens or a team even though he had some soccer knowledge. Kids did get to play only because they were seniors, or because they whined. Skills were not looked at as much as these other factors. My son got sooooo frustrated trying to go to bat for his teammates, have a successful season and deal with a coach that only had “his” way (I think it was insecurity due to being his first coaching position) but it didn’t make it any easier for the kids. It was a lesson for many of the boys–some quit, some hung in, but all learned where their breaking point was and where their priorities lay. All in all it was a pretty miserable senior year and one we were all glad to have over–but son did learn a little about leadership in suboptimal situations.</p>

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<p>Disclaimer Alert! Both of my kids are/were in the performing arts when it came to competing. But there are parallels.
Whether academic teacher, dance instructor, whatever, we’ve always started with a problem-solving session with our s or d. We’ve asked what outcome they’d like, and suggest options. We also agreed to speak with the “offending adult” if our children so wished (they NEVER did). Our approach was similar to what has been suggested here. My son learned patience and tact. He learned that adults, even when well meaning, could be unfair. He learned to advocate for himself, to go outside the system to learn additional skills or to obtain recognition. He learned to make himself the absolute best, so that skills could not be overlooked. He learned to respect the person, even when disagreeing with their actions.
When a situation recently arose, and he anticipated a required course with a difficult instructor, I reminded him of his skills in successfully negotiating those old high school relationships. We were able to laugh.</p>