LAC Grads: Do you ever regret attending an LAC?

cobrat · March 9, 2012, 11:15am

This was my experience when I took some/sat in on some courses* at two Ivies…including Columbia.

Contrary to popular belief, it seemed the undergrad students actually seemed less engaged and more passive in their courses…sometimes to the point of being intimidated by their more extroverted classmates…even when they are spouting complete nonsense telegraphing their ignorance.

In fact, some of those intimidated undergrads who got to know me for a bit actually asked me to intercede on their behalf with their TA & Prof because they were that afraid. Such lack of engagement and student passivity/intimidation would never happen at my undergrad…Profs wouldn’t tolerate it, classmates tend get on the case of blow-hard know-it-alls with intimidating personalities**, and there was a student culture which inculcates a love of debate/argument in every college classmate…even if they were initially the most introverted wallflower.

This was an issue, but is a YMMV depending on LAC. My LAC’s libraries were pretty large for a student population of around 3000 and for my field…rarely had to use ILL or go off to Columbia during my undergrad years. Had no problems accessing academic journals that I needed…and this was back in the days before they were conveniently available online.

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<li>Courtesy of friends who were TAs/Profs in those classes. </li>
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** Reflexively like how bulls react when seeing a moving cape or sharks when sensing blood in the water…cept it is to prevent the aggressive intimidating blow-hard know it alls from dominating the classroom and putting down other students.

Haystack · March 9, 2012, 11:23am

My S is a HS junior and still undecided about attending an LAC or research university. He is considering majoring in anthro, geography, history…probably something in the social sciences. I have looked at the courses of study in anthro at all types of schools…elite and non-elite. This is what I have found…

All of the LAC’s that I have looked at require a senior capstone research experience. Some are one semester (Denison, Centre, Truman State) in length while others are the entire senior year (Bates,Wooster). All require one course in research methods specific to anthro but Truman State requires two: quant and qual research methods.

Research universities are a mixed bag. Northwestern has a senior capstone seminar and requires one research methods class. Iowa requires neither for the BA but does require 2 methods courses for the BS. Neither the BA nor the BS requires a senior reserach seminar. Minnesota does not require a research methods course but encourages students to do a senior project. If you do not do a senior project than you take 6 hours extra in electives.

If S decides he wants to pursue a social science major with the intention of grad school, I will recommend that he focuses on LACs that require a significant senior research project with one-on-one faculty guidance.

GTalum · March 9, 2012, 11:31am

I agree with Dad, this is so wrong. Certainly my Williams D has a better chance of getting into a top notch PHD program than does my S at a flagship state university.

JHS · March 9, 2012, 11:31am

With those undergraduate-origin studies, it’s the case, no?, that they are looking at PhD’s per/000 graduated, not absolute numbers of PhDs. I think Bryn Mawr (and many others) rank very highly in terms of number of PhDs divided by average class size, but they are not necessarily top 10 in terms of absolute numbers of PhDs produced.

Re: shawbridge’s statement quoted by GTalum above – Obviously, I disagree with it too, and I think shawbridge misread my post. I (in the humanities) had a super-sophisticated undergraduate experience at what at the time was the undisputed top university in the world in my field. And I loved that. But in retrospect I and my classmates might have been equally or better served by less sophistication and more careful fundamentals at a LAC. And my son, who had a university experience similar to mine, but in the social sciences, lost out head-to-head to candidates from LACs when he applied to top graduate programs.

kpgriswold · March 9, 2012, 1:52pm

I went to a very small LAC, and do not regret it for a minute. I paid for it myself through merit aid, student loans and part-time jobs, and learned the value of both hard work and education. I met friends who are still my “besties” 30 years later, and got to know professors with whom I still correspond.

At my LAC, I joined performance groups and got involved in student leadership. I think I would have been lost in the crowd at a huge state school, and not had those opportunities. I do not work in my original field of study – English lit! – but learned how to think and to write well and used that as a springboard to a career that I love.

It may not be a great choice for everyone, but it was for me.

blossom · March 9, 2012, 2:08pm

Dare I say it… there are many people in the world (and your children might be among them) who do not go on to PhD programs whether in STEM or Humanities.

This focus on PhD production strikes me as a little bizarre. Full disclosure- if I thought any of my kids would actually end up in a PhD program (vs. just talking and planning for it) my perspective for sure would be different. But there are JD’s and MSW’s and MLS and MBA’s and vocationally oriented Masters degrees in public policy and International Relations and Urban Planning and Occupational Therapy and the like. Not a single one of these graduate programs would consider the lack of research an issue with an application- not one. There are many, many things which would be knock-out factors for these programs. But the fact that for MOST KIDS who will not end up in academia, there are some colleges which are not breeding grounds for the academics of tomorrow- that should give no pause for the vast majority of students in making a college choice.

This CC obsession is quite peculiar, and leads to bizarre statements such as ones further up thread that could lead a parent to believe that MIT is a bad place for undergraduate research (a ridiculous assumption) or that it is hard getting STEM research experience at a top research university. Bizarre.

Go look up how much money Boeing, GE, Merck, National Science Foundation, Intel, Microsoft, IBM spend on campus based research every year (it aggregates to billions.) They are spending it where you would expect- Cal Tech, MIT, Michigan, UIUC, etc- that’s what it means to be a big, famous research university. It is a CC self perpetuating canard that the research is only being done by grad students, and that famous professors ignore their undergraduate students.

When Swarthmore or Williams get a grant that’s fantastic. But bigger grants mean bigger staffs and footprints, more opportunities to hire. Boeing is not going to wake up tomorrow and decide that they need to shift their research dollars on materials science from a big research U to a tiny college that changes lives, Loren Pope be damned.

Does a kid need research? no, of course not. Especially if the kid wants a Master’s in Social Work or to become a lawyer. Even to become a professor of law (law schools teach research methodology to those who are inclined.) But you guys should spend time in an actual lab at an actual university before deciding that the Research U’s don’t offer opportunities to undergrads.

Who do you think orders the pizza at 3 am when the universities server crashes and the team is waiting for it to come back? :)

Bay · March 9, 2012, 2:17pm

I thought the same thing. What percentage of matriculating freshmen end up applying for PhD programs?

dietz199 · March 9, 2012, 2:35pm

Blossom and Bay, you must have been strolling around in my head…I’ve had the same thought. CC is a very self selected community. I’m not too sure about how many 12th graders are looking 10 years into the future and planning a Phd. That said, DS talks about it but I take it with a grain of salt.

warbrain · March 9, 2012, 2:47pm

Sorry, I was specifically talking about math.

san-dee · March 9, 2012, 2:50pm

re: Bryn Mawr. My D graduated BMC several years ago, and is now attending a top PhD program in the humanities. She feels her classes at BMC prepared her exceptionally well for the PhD program; in fact, now that she is T’A’ing at a top research university, she sees all the more how well BMC prepared her, compared to the undergrads she is now teaching.

Just sayin’…everyone’s experience is different. For her, it worked out.

Haystack · March 9, 2012, 2:58pm

I am a lecturer at a major research university in a quantitative/computer field. Here is where the tenured faculty in my dept received undergrad and Phd’s from…

BA in Mathematics, Dartmouth College → Stanford; child goes to Williams
BA in Mathematics, Luther College → Purdue
BS in Mathematics, University of Georgia → Ga Tech
BA in Computational and Applied Mathematics, Rice University → Ga Tech
BIE, Georgia Tech → Cal
BSIE, Iowa State University → Northwestern
BS in Mathematics, University of Nebraska-Lincoln -->Michigan
BA in Mathematics and Computer Science, Drake University → Wisconsin; child goes to UChicago
BA in Mathematics and Economics, Grinnell College → Michigan

mini · March 9, 2012, 3:40pm

The simple truth is that research universities earn their reputation through research. Professors’ research, aid by excellent graduate students. Liberal arts colleges earn their reputations through teaching undergraduates. The best research universities pay more (though secondary) attention to the undergraduate experience. The best liberal arts colleges pay more (though secondary) attention to research.

What’s so difficult to understand? The title of this forum is “Lac Grads: Do you ever regret attending an LAC?” I think that has already been well answered by the LAC grads.

blossom · March 9, 2012, 4:25pm

Mini, thank you for deconstructing this for me. As a non-LAC grad I am obviously too stupid to understand the thread. However, what I do understand is that many posters are arguing for LAC’s using a statistic which is likely irrelevant to the vast majority of HS students, I.e. where should I go where my interests in becoming an academic/getting a PhD will be most supported.

I know many LAC grads who regret their experience- none, however, from the Williams and Amhersts of the world. One can assume that they chose from among the top institutions in the country, regardless of size and scope. The more typical LAC grad who went to Colby or Manhattanville or Ithaca, who did not major in the one or two very strong programs which have a national reputations, sometimes find themselves behind the 8 ball professionally. Not a reason to exclude LAC’s from one’s list, but a reason to consider. There are LAC’s which used to be two year “finishing schools” and are now 4 year institutions- it is misleading to state that such LAC’s offer great research opportunities to undergraduates. Some do, some don’t, some have a high proportion of adjunct, part-time and visiting faculty and the learning experience is about as far away from Williams or Swat as one can get.

So thanks Mini- now I understand the title of the thread. Some day you may meet a graduate of Sweet Briar or Russell Sage who can tell you about how difficult it was for them to get into a graduate program coming out of an LAC with zero research opportunities, or getting a job with a national employer with a degree with zero national recognition.

shawbridge · March 9, 2012, 4:41pm

blossom, the question you pose is excellent. Williams and Amherst are great feeders to all kinds of schools (professional, graduate). I think a student with an intense interest in one subject would likely run out of courses to take, although the Amherst student could take graduate courses at UMass Amherst. But, let’s not worry about the PhD bound students who have been the source of discussion. For the normal, non-PhD bound student, schools of that caliber are going to be great. Close professor contact, generally good teaching, strong community spirit, tons of resources/capita.

If instead, you drop a tier or two to schools without the same resources or student bodies (as examples, you suggest Colby, Sweet Briar, Russel Sage, Manhattanville or Ithaca), would students at such schools regret their choice relative to, I guess, the larger schools to which they were admitted? Would their employment or grad school prospects be diminished? I’m guessing that they would still have very good academic experiences – professors who are really interested in teaching likely teach there. Research opportunities would be weaker (I know mini will disagree, but I’m unpersuaded). But, would going to such an LAC hurt on grad school or employment fronts?

Haystack · March 9, 2012, 5:02pm

Colby is vastly different than Sweet Briar or Sage. It is just a notch below Williams and I would guess that Colby grads have no problem with grad school admissions.

But most LAC are far removed from the likes of Colby and Williams My state has about 25 LACs. I would only consider sending my kid to 2 of them. The rest are from fair to terrible with employments options of lesser quality and quantity than our state flagships. Our state flagships are much better options over the typical LAC.

prayinglady · March 9, 2012, 5:44pm

Never regretted it!

bclintonk · March 9, 2012, 5:50pm

First, I agree with Haystack that you and blossom are making a huge category mistake listing Colby (ranked by US News the #21 LAC) with the other schools you list. There’s just no comparison. But even taking Colby out of that group, you’re taking a middling bunch of LACs (or not even LACs; US News lists most of the schools as “regional universities”) and implicitly comparing them to top research universities. Take Sweet Briar, for instance. US News ranks it #99 among national LACs. Not terrible, but not great. Comparably ranked research universities would include the likes of University of Dayton, University of New Hampshire, University of Oklahoma, University of the Pacific. Not terrible schools by any means, but hardly research powerhouses, either. Middling, I’d say, and in that regard a lot like Sweet Briar, only bigger. Would a Dayton or a UNH better prepare a student for grad school or the job market than Sweet Briar? I don’t have any reason to think so.

Ithaca, Manhattanville and Sage aren’t even listed as “national” schools. US News lists them as “regional universities” in the North division–Ithaca #11, Manhattanville #46, Sage #49 in that category. With some exceptions (Villanova is a pretty good school in the same category), it’s generally going to be harder for a student to make the leap from a school that is perceived to be a “regional” school to top grad programs, and one suspects the employment opportunities for graduates of such schools will also be more limited. But what’s your point? If your argument is just that the graduate of a small and relatively obscure regional college, especially one ranked #46 or #49 in that category in its region, isn’t going to have the same employment prospects and graduate-level educational opportunities as the graduate of a top-tier research university . . . well, doh! But they won’t have the same employment prospects and educational opportunities as the graduate of a top-tier LAC, either. Nor will the graduates of the University of Dayton have the same opportunities as the graduates of the top-tier research universities and the top-tier LACs, but in my opinion the prospects of, say a Bowdoin graduate will be much more similar to those of a Brown graduate than either will be to a graduate of Dayton or Manhattanville. In short, it’s not about size.

Calreader · March 9, 2012, 7:12pm

Blossom, I have a nit to pick with your statement that it’s a “CC canard” to suggest that famous professors ignore their undergraduates. I was a grad student in different disciplines in two large universities, and I did a fair amount of TAing at both schools. Not all the professors were famous, but most of them were. In the classes I assisted with, the professors did not read student work - not papers, not problem sets, not exams. They taught in medium to large lectures, and I don’t think they learned the names of most of their students.

Across both schools, I met just one (1) undergraduate who collaborated on a faculty project - this was at the larger of the two universities, and she was a very unusual student. I think quite a few of these professors were good teachers, and it wouldn’t be fair to say that they ignored the undergrads, because they seemed to work hard at creating interesting lectures and assignments. But they also weren’t involved with any undergrads as individuals, as far as I could tell.

All disclaimers apply - this is just one person’s experience.

mini · March 9, 2012, 7:51pm

“Blossom, I have a nit to pick with your statement that it’s a “CC canard” to suggest that famous professors ignore their undergraduates.”

Famous professors ignore their undergraduates. My d. is a head preceptor. She teaches new material, leads all discussions, makes assignments, reads and grades them all, reads all papers and exams, comments on them, and grades them, and “recommends” the final grade to the famous professor (who lectures once a week(, who doesn’t even know the names of the students, let alone whether the grade was deserved. Please don’t think I’m putting down my d. - she really knows her stuff! - but to suggest that the very best classroom education in America is coming from her is really, really a stretch. And, no, this professor has NO undergraduates doing research with him.

But I have one personal anecdote that is more telling. At the age of 15, my older d. received one major international award in music composition, and was the finalist in another - the most prestigious composition competition for composers under the age of 26 in the U.S. - hence encompassing virtually all graduate students at the best graduate programs in the U.S. One of the awards for the first competition was to attend a summer week-long composition workshop with a relatively famous composer from Harvard. They worked together. He liked her work.

That fall, she went to H. to kick the tires. She asked the head of undergraduate music whether she might get a chance to work with this professor. She was told that he NEVER works with undergraduates, lectures rarely (huge lectures), and, no, while she was there, she couldn’t meet with him. Almost needless to say, she didn’t apply.

“So thanks Mini- now I understand the title of the thread. Some day you may meet a graduate of Sweet Briar or Russell Sage who can tell you about how difficult it was for them to get into a graduate program coming out of an LAC with zero research opportunities, or getting a job with a national employer with a degree with zero national recognition.”

I imagine it is no different with Central Washington University, Rutgers University-Camden, University of Missouri-Rolla, or Chico State. Except (and here’s where I will cut you some slack): the very top student at a second-tier university (the ones I named are probably third tier), especially in the sciences, may find her/himself surrounded by mentors, good research opportunities, internships, etc. that the student at Russell Sage doesn’t get, and might amaze the middling student in the top tier of schools. Because the graduate students are run-of-the-mill, and the professors are always looking for talent, amazing opportunities may make their appearance. I’ve seen that happen - and, actually, not just in the sciences. My d’s graduate program has a bunch of students like that - who were accepted over dozens of Ivy applicants. It is true that most of them already had M.A.s before entering. But they ended up with a lot of cred, for one reason or another, with the chair of graduate studies.)

(And no, most students DON’T require research opportunities. They deserve good undergraduate educations that they are paying for, hopefully not mostly provided by TAs, and with professors who might know their names, at least some times.)

momofthreeboys · March 9, 2012, 8:00pm

You guys lost me. Not every major needs or requires “research” …maybe mentoring but research I’m not convinced of. What do you research if you are a writer or a philosopher some non-science type major? Other writers, philosopher, etc…isn’t that what liberal arts i all about? Not sure about the concept of “research”…unless you are using it as a euphemism for mentoring. Colby and Russel Sage. I’ve never, ever heard of Russel Sage or Manhantanville. They may be perfectly fine colleges…I’m going to pour a glass of wine and look them up.

LAC Grads: Do you ever regret attending an LAC?

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