<p>My sample of 1 is not even me, psych_.</p>
<p>There is a real difference between mathematics and many other subjects, in terms of a thesis. Sometimes it’s not a question of procrastination, it’s a question of an unyielding problem. This can be unexpected. Or it could simply be that the particular mathematical “toolkit” that the student has acquired won’t solve certain sets of problems.</p>
<p>When I read the initial post, I was reminded of a story of an LAC that I heard about from an unhappy parent during my student’s college search process. As that story went, even though due to a health issue, the LAC held up a student’s graduation for a year (no mid year graduations in that day), and even though the student had a grad school acceptance in hand, due to an incomplete requirement. The parent’s own kid had some issues with the same LAC, but managed to graduate on time with quite a bit of aggravation. This particular parent’s other kid went to a much larger university, and felt that the LAC, in comparison to the university, was much worse in dealing with special circumstances if they arose, since they were likely to have seen everything, and the LAC, not so much. YMMV.</p>
<p>At my own university, at graduation, a good friend got an empty envelope, and was shocked that no one had told her before then that she had a problem. This was way before the school had on line programs where you could check for yourself that your degree was on track. She never said how it was resolved, but that fall she was able to enroll in her planned grad school.</p>
<p>Another friend’s kid had finished all requirements, except for the thesis, in three and a half years, at that university, they charged no tuition the eighth semester in order for her to finish the thesis and get the May diploma. </p>
<p>There is a sort of “famous”, or perhaps infamous is the better term, case of the Yale student, Suzanne Jovin, who was murdered. Part of the story was that her honors thesis advisor was not helping her enough, and, much to his horror, they made him suspect number one for a while. You can google many facts, but the reason that I mention it is that she had been upset about her thesis advising, and apparently she was not a shy person.</p>
<p>Yalemom, your kid’s GF should see exactly why August is out of the question. Pay the man the $2, as they say in vaudeville, and get out asap.</p>
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Got to agree with this … if the thesis is near completion and the school believes it will be completed well in a timely matter I would hope a school would let the student walk. To be fair we have no idea how close the thesis is to complete.</p>
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<p>Thank you for sharing this perspective QuantMech, it is the biggest piece of this puzzle I don’t understand. Theses about literature, history, psychology, etc, I can wrap my head around. Math, I don’t get, I don’t even get how you write an undergraduate thesis about math. To your question, I don’t know how experienced her adviser is, another big part of the puzzle I am missing.</p>
<p>Thank you to all the sympathetic ears out there, you reminded me during my indignation that ultimately we’re still talking about a devastated young woman who has suffered an awful embarassment. It sounds like just as many posters advised here, she’s just going to suck it up, and take the degree in January. She’s working every day on it and plans on turning it in on June 15th. They are going to pay the 5k. </p>
<p>My instinct would be to fight tooth and nail, but it’s not my fight. People accomplish their goals in many different paths, some more circuitous that others, but those less conventional paths can sometimes yield the more interesting journeys.</p>
<p>…and that’s about as Zen as I get 
. Thank you all!</p>
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<p>I think one takeaway from this thread could be that there are small LACs out there that tout individual attention and a better experience but don’t deliver. I have a close friend whose D just graduated from a small LAC. The school almost didn’t let her walk because of the timing on getting an official transcript from a large state flagship where she took an on-line course in her final semester. She was only taking the online course because the LAC ended up not offering it in that semester, despite having said they would. There was no question that she’d passed the course - there was an unofficial transcript and both the prof and the registrar from Large State U called and told the LAC registrar that was the case. The issue was getting an “official” transcript, which Large State U didn’t do until its semester was completely over and all grades filed. LAC wouldn’t budge on the requirement for the official transcript - not to issue a diploma, but to let her walk!!! It ended up being Large State U that made an exception to its policy and issued the official transcript. Friend and her D were extremely disappointed that Large State U, from which the D had taken only one course, was more flexible and accommodating than the small, supposedly personal LAC the D attended (and paid large tuition to) for 4 years. Yet they were not surprised, as it was consistent with other experiences with the LAC. And FWIW, the online prof from Large State U was better and more helpful than most of the profs the D had at LAC. Go figure. I don’t think one can assume that a small LAC experience will necessarily be a better experience - you have to really check out the school.</p>
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<p>I don’t think one can generalize this as over LAC or university. My impression is that it’s dependent on each individual college and the Prof/admins involved in each case.</p>
<p>For instance, I know of many universities which screwed over friends because they were not willing to be flexible on minor bureaucratic details even with extenuating circumstances</p>
<p>On the flipside, my LAC and many of the Profs I had were exceedingly generous with extending deadlines or accepting things at the extreme last minute. </p>
<p>One older senior classmate in a seminar class handed in his seminar term paper 3 HOURS BEFORE THE PROF HAD TO TURN IN FINAL GRADES to the registrar. </p>
<p>Somehow, the Prof happily accepted it, graded all 20-30 pages of it, and thus…allowed said classmate to graduate. This would have never been allowed at several universities my friends/colleagues have attended…especially if said student had no extenuating circumstances and had issues just because he decided to slack off senior year.</p>
<p>Sometimes really bizarre things happen that are really, honestly true even though they might not “have the ring of truth” or pass the mini smell test. Also, when you have only half the information, you don’t know what you don’t know.</p>
<p>For example, a couple of years ago when my D was applying to grad school, she had an issue with getting a recommendation on time. THe short answer is that the professor delayed and then went on a study abroad trip, leaving her in the lurch. And I am confident that if I had posted about that, my daughter would have been called a slacker or something or accused of lacking judgment and maturity. However, the long answer to that situation was that the professor with whom she had the closest relationship and done research with dropped dead of a heart attack with the recommendation half finished and it was a tough call for everyone to know how to handle that since he was very young and had not been ill.</p>
<p>So the point is that even if something looks suspicious, it might really be that weird of a situation. It does happen.</p>
<p>My university allowed students to walk, provided that they were within one or two classes of graduation. They would receive an August diploma, but they got to walk with their friends and have their families witness the big moment.</p>
<p>zoosermom-I would agree if the student had not turned in an incomplete paper. While I don’t agree that anything suspicious is going on, I do believe the student in the OP dropped the ball, whether or not she had an adviser who was on the ball. I have a friend whose D almost didn’t get into graduate school when HER adviser was late with the recommendations. So I know these things happen. But not in the case of the OP.</p>
<p>We don’t know WHY she turned in a half-done paper, only that it happened, and that she’s not fighting it. I would guess that’s because she knows it’s all on her. I wouldn’t be fighting for my kid to walk if she hadn’t done all her work either. If someone on the faculty had screwed up, yes, then I’d fight. This is another story altogether.</p>
<p>It’s always tough when families all plan to fly over and come to see the student walk for graduation if for whatever reason the student isn’t walking. This can come as a surprise to a lot of folks and I applaud those Us who allow the student to walk and then take the needed courses. For our D, we parents didn’t find out that D was missing courses until AFTER the ceremony, which was attended by many of us who flew in from out of town and had made arrangements many months prior.</p>
<p>She IS getting her diploma a year later and was happy to walk with her peers last spring.</p>
<p>I wrote a senior honors thesis in undergraduate (not required, but I’m familiar with the experience), a master’s thesis to get my MA here at Columbia and am currently writing my dissertation. A few thoughts:</p>
<p>1) I don’t see the outrage about the fee. Usually schools have a policy that any semester you are completing graduation requirements, you need to pay fees - some kind of fees. That’s true all the way up through the PhD level - we have to remain enrolled and pay fees every semester until the one we defend. It’s not an arbitrary charge; it’s the cost of remaining enrolled. Presumably she will use the university/college’s resources while revising her dissertation (access to professors, library resources, maybe even lab materials).</p>
<p>2) The graduation date may or may not be understandable, too. If the thesis is only 85% done, that’s why it was rejected as unsatisfactory, so that’s why she didn’t graduate - her fault completely. If it will only take her 3 weeks to finish the thesis - it’s almost the beginning of June, so that means it will be nearly the end of June by the time she turns it in. Even if we give her advisors only two weeks to review and approve it, that’s the middle of July. The deadline for August graduation may be the beginning of July or end of June so she may be turning in her thesis too late to graduate in August, hence the January graduation date.</p>
<p>It does sound like her advisor dropped the ball, in addition to the student. This is primarily the student’s fault, of course. But in my experience, most advisors work with undergrads to set internal deadlines and get drafts from students long before the final deadline. You also have periodic discussions with the student to see where they are headed with the thesis. Her advisor should’ve seen at least a complete first draft long before the actual deposit deadline of May 4. (I had to turn in a final draft AND give an oral presentation before the actual deposit deadline for my senior thesis.) It’s possible that she has a flaky advisor - I feel like the flakiness trait is much stronger in academics than the general population, lol. It’s also possible that SHE, the student, is the one who disappeared before the deadline because she knew she wouldn’t finish and just wanted to shrink away and disappear rather than ask for help. A lot of students at all levels (grad students, too) do this during the writing phases of their theses/dissertations.</p>
<p>Also - theses require a different set of skills than passing classes. It’s very very possible to be an excellent student and turn in a horrible thesis, or be unable to complete it. Theses require a sort of passion for answering a particular question or addressing a particular issue; a dedication and motivation to address that topic for at least a year at a time; and a lot of independent motivation. You’re basically told that at the end of X amount of time you need to have a 50-page paper on someone’s desk by 5 pm. It’s up to you to not only write it…but select the right person to help guide you in that endeavor. There’s nothing wrong with not doing well at this or stumbling a bit in the beginning. And I still think this student is probably an excellent student, but given her personality, she’s just not well-suited for senior thesis-type work.</p>
<p>Well, friends of mine went to their son’s Princeton graduation. All he needed to do was the senior thesis. Two years later he still hasn’t done it. He finally has a job - at least for the summer working at a camp. </p>
<p>I did a senior thesis and remember spending the year feeling like I had bit off much more than I could chew. It ended up being 130 pages long! But I’m pretty sure it got handed in well before graduation and I do remember meeting at least occasionally with my advisiors. (I had two.)</p>
<p>My Ds senior thesis was “only” 88 pages.
I love the Internet. I could just look that up instead of actually having to get up & look in the book shelf. :o
( part of publishing the thesis involves not only an oral review board but hard copies that can be checked out from college library)</p>
<p>Is this girlfriend the one that is two years ahead of your son’s?
I thought she was also at Yale.</p>
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<p>My son who is graduating in June has a classmate who is 2 QUARTERS (due to major changes and abroad trips) from graduating yet their U (top 20) is letting her walk at graduation. Several people on this thread have recounted similar stories. </p>
<p>Walking in the Spring graduation with the class you started out with 4 years earlier (especially a small LAC) is largely ceremonial and poignant. Yes, on paper, and legally, the degree hasn’t happened yet, but no one will remember that when the photos are looked at fondly years later.</p>
<p>This LAC informed her 2 days before graduation that she would not be graduating and therefore could not walk with her friends. Her parents and 80+ year old grandparents were en route on a 15 hour car drive to see her. </p>
<p>I know some of you think I’m leaving out some smoking gun that would justify this LAC’s actions, but I assure you I am not. This is all about a non credit hour/non honors senior math thesis that was not completely finished in time, but is going to be done by the middle of June.</p>
<p>This situation was SO insane, I cannot wait to be able to identify this college on CC once she has her degree in hand.</p>
<p>Emeraldkity- You are really paying attention! Both my 2015 and 2013 sons have 2013 gf’s . The 2015 one’s is the Yalie</p>
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<p>Even if it is on a non-credit hour basis, if it is a mandated academic requirement…failing to fulfill it can be treated as if one failed an actual course or two. </p>
<p>A Senior/Honors Thesis at my LAC and presumably many other colleges is treated unofficially as if one took 1-2 extra courses on top of one’s workload. While one can claim the equivalent in course credits to fulfilling credit/major requirements…most don’t as in the event one’s thesis isn’t accepted, it would not only mean not graduating with honors, but also mean having to take extra terms to make up for those lost credits/major requirements. </p>
<p>Also, a thesis isn’t like a regular coursework assignment where any Prof could be substituted in to supervise the work. It is on a whole another level which requires a supervising Prof with some in-depth working knowledge of the topic being explored. </p>
<p>Moreover, I’ve known of some colleagues who weren’t allowed to walk with their college graduating classes for things such as accumulating too many library fines and not paying them off before a deadline in order to not have a graduation hold held on them or in the case of some grad schools…because they didn’t file some formalistic bureaucratic form on time.</p>
<p>As horrible as this is, I think it’s mostly the student’s fault for not fulfilling the requirements. It sounds like she has social anxiety or some other emotional issue. Whatever the problem is, getting it addressed is more important than graduating on time, as she will carry it with her the rest of her life unless she deals with it now. She will not be able to get through med school if she doesn’t learn to be bull-headed about asking questions, and to push back when she doesn’t get an answer she can understand. Until she learns to address these gaps, she doesn’t belong in med school or any other graduate program.</p>
<p>Several decades ago, my Ivy grad program’s thesis project requirement involved two years of close consultation with several professors, including students’ designated thesis advisor. Completed thesis work was presented to thesis committee and fellow students at near-conclusion of program. One of my classmates, a capable and attentive female student, was unexpectedly and quite sharply attacked by her own thesis advisor, who announced her thesis project was “unacceptable” a week before graduation. The student, shocked by his criticism, replied in tears: “we’ve been meeting (twice-weekly) for more than a year, and now you have issues?” Her fellow classmates were equally stunned; the professor had a reputation of being a jerk.</p>
<p>I’ll add that the program’s professors as a whole were quite unwelcoming to its female students. There where several instances of sexual harrassment, as well as many instances of sexual discrimination. One professor refused to speak to any female students. Another targeted a new female student each year for his sexual advances. The thesis prize winner for my year was granted an additional week to “polish it up” prior to submittal more than a week tardy. The strongest thesis was prepared by a woman, who was told by her advisor that “it’s politically infeasible for a female student to win thesis prize”. She was made marshall for her class instead.</p>
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<p>I guess I don’t see the point of “walking” at graduation if one is two terms (or even two classes) short of graduating. It would seem like such an empty honor to see peers who have actually finished and met the requirements of their degree plan being recognized for, well, meeting the requirements of the degree plan. I can’t imagine feeling any joy at walking with my classmates, seeing their relief at being “done,” knowing I’m NOT done. I did not get to graduate with my classmates in nursing school because I had withdrawn for a semester in order to give birth to my daughter. No way would I have wanted to go through a graduation ceremony when I had not, in fact, graduated. I don’t understand…</p>
<p>The student in the OP is not what I’m referencing above, though. I’m talking about all these other examples of being a few classes shy, or as in the quote above, two QUARTERS lacking. Makes no sense to me.</p>
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It would be helpful to know which LACs are doing what is being described by several posters in this thread. Its unnecessarily harsh and rigid.</p>
<p>JYM, you only have half the story (and probably only one quarter.) Reserve judgment on how rigid unless you have the facts at hand.</p>
<p>Most of the stories I’ve heard with similar spin to this were missing an essential detail or two. In one instance, both the thesis advisor AND the department chair had contacted the student several weeks before the thesis was due to ask that a draft be submitted ASAP for comments… so if there was anything substantial missing, or erroneous, or requiring further research, there would be time to complete it by the deadline.</p>
<p>The student ignored the request… figuring that since he was so far behind the 8-ball, he needed every minute of the remaining month to finish it, NOT to incorporate feedback, respond to questions, etc. Only to discover–once the thesis was rejected-- that the professors can usually save time by deleting entire sections as not relevant or tangential, or can help structure the logic in such a way that the conclusion writes itself.</p>
<p>Tough lesson. Sometimes when someone is trying to help you should let them.</p>