Some projects just don’t work out. As a (very research-focused) undergrad, I completed two “senior theses” but they were actually the second and third I started. My first proposal was passed by my committee, but I could never get the required n despite my best efforts. I simply got credit for the proposal and moved on. Similarly, I knew someone whose PhD graduation was delayed by 3+ years because they couldn’t get the required participants for their study for all those years. Lessons from both these projects? Don’t work with small sub-populations if you are on a tight deadline!</p>
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<li><p>I had to chuckle at the “didn’t she meet with her advisor?” posts. Some advisors give great, timely feedback, others couldn’t be pinned down for a meeting if you covered them in superglue. This is true, unfortunately, even at the doctoral level at good universities. Fortunately. I haven’t been a victim of it myself, but I’ve definitely seen it happen. It sucks, and it’s pretty much out of the student’s control.</p></li>
<li><p>I’m surprised that she had to “turn in” her thesis. At least in my field and in most research-based fields, you do a formal proposal and formal defense in front of your committee. This gives you immediate feedback–although most people schedule their defense the last week of the semester, so I don’t know how much that really helps… ;)</p></li>
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<p>Oh - I was reading through the thread post by post and I was just about to make the point that Psych_ just made as Point #2.</p>
<p>“Some advisors give great, timely feedback, others couldn’t be pinned down for a meeting if you covered them in superglue. This is true, unfortunately, even at the doctoral level at good universities. Fortunately. I haven’t been a victim of it myself, but I’ve definitely seen it happen. It sucks, and it’s pretty much out of the student’s control.”</p>
<p>My first thought on this was that this poor student was unlucky and got an adviser who was not much one for advice.</p>
<p>I agree that it needs to get done…correctly…ASAP. Although it was decades ago I recall helping kids get theirs typed up (back then) and submitted in time so they could graduate. I made a bunch of money that last month…a bunch of money. Back in my time, the college did not require a 5th year,and if all the student was missing was the thesis, let them walk and receive a blank diploma. But the assumption was they would get it turned in within a month or two. It’s almost semi-beliveable in this day and age that some college would charge students who don’t get it done on time.</p>
<p>There was probably a thesis advisor, a major advisor, and a med school advisor. All there with open doors. In many LACs that I know of, the med school advisor would be a total bulldog. If you had a very good GPA and were pre-med, you’d basically have to hide not to have/him taking a bite out of you. </p>
<p>The thing doesn’t all fit together. I suspect we know only 40% of the story. I don’t believe for one minute that it is simply a matter of not getting it done on time.</p>
FirstToGo’s LAC (Barnard) and the due date was, I believe, less than week before the graduation date. That said I know she had been working with her adviser and had had numerous reviews WAY before the final due date. My B-school had a required thesis also due a few days before graduation … the close timing seems pretty normal to me.</p>
<p>Even if the adviser totally dropped the ball the only way the student ends up at this end point is if she totally dropped the ball … by not asking for reviews if the professor was willing or not asking for help if the adviser would not … the only case I really see for the family to complain about the extension and a fee for the extension is if the she met with the adviser many times, was given positive feedback, and then had the rug pulled out from her at the end.</p>
<p>PS - Personally I like the Myers-Briggs definition of introvert which focuses on where a person draws and depleted energy. An inability to deal with others is not introversion, IMO, but an issue for which someone might want to investigate support/help. This student wants to be a doctor … it sounds likely they might have difficulty delivering bad news to a patient, seeking out unknown expert colleagues that might help on cases, or advocate for a patient if it involved confrontation or a lot of strangers. Skills she will need to be a top doc. (I am not trying to be critical … but as a introverted shy person who had similar issues when I was younger … I eventually grew out of most of these issues but that had to be a better way working with experts to deal with my limitations).</p>
<p>No other faculty member or advisor, no matter how awesome, dedicated, or dogged, can force a thesis advisor to give feedback or meet with a student.</p>
<p>As I understood it, this was a project in mathematics. If it required original work, then there is no way to force insight into a problem to come. One has to work hard, and then one often has to “wait it out,” until the insight suddenly dawns. The project that the student was doing might have been too hard for her. Also, it is not clear whether the advisor has already solved the problem or not–if not, he/she may not know how difficult the problem actually is.</p>
<p>All of the comments about timeliness, regular meetings with the advisor, etc. would not apply in the case of trying to solve a previously unsolved problem in mathematics.</p>
<p>I think it quite unfair to accuse someone of plagiarism without sufficient substantiation. There are many possible scenarios here.</p>
<p>It’s just as likely that the faculty member dropped the ball.</p>
<p>My thesis director refused to pass my doctoral dissertation which subsequently won best dissertation in the country with no corrections. A new committee had to be convened. The award came from an impartial body not attached to my U.</p>
<p>It’s the faculty member’s job to shepherd this along. We have no idea if many warnings were issued or not.</p>
<p>The student could request a second reader.</p>
<p>If the decision stands, no need to catastrophize. $5K is a lot more reasonable than full semester tuition. The student should complete the project, regroup, and process lessons. Lessons might include respect for deadlines, self-advocacy, or even just that stuff happens.</p>
<p>This should be a blip.</p>
<p>The story about coming for graduation should be played down. A matter-of-fact approach would be most helpful,IMHO.</p>
<p>Full disclosure: My kid did complete a thesis at Barnard in a timely manner, but if she hadn’t, would have dealt with it.</p>
<p>5K is annoying, but it’s only 2 1/2 % of the total outlay. As I said, excrement happens.</p>
<p>There is an important distinction between plagiarism and derivative work. The latter simply means a lack of original contribution. It may be that a summary of previously known work was not considered substantial enough for a thesis, without necessarily being plagiarism. One would be an honor code violation (if there was one); the other would be failure to meet the requirements.</p>
<p>We already know there was a failure to meet the requirements. The only outstanding question is why.</p>
<p>my d just graduated and had completed an honor’s thesis at her LAC, few weeks early in fact, was very proud and a little surprised actually. Quite a few 5th years at the graduation. My d shared that many students do not complete their thesis on time, in fact her roommate just finished his 5th year without completing. </p>
<p>I felt terrible hearing this as he’s a great kid. My d pointed out that in her department (psych) her advisor meets with each student weekly as they get started and then twice a month, which was super helpful. In STEM however this young man’s advisor never met with him to help assess where he stood at different points. From my d’s description this young man sounded to me like he was depressed and no one (other than my d) took the initiative to help him. We are hoping he gets some support and finishes…</p>
<p>Wonder if this young woman may also be struggling emotionally, and not simply introverted, since according to her abilities she should have been able to master this.</p>
<p>Could it be that the student simply underestimated the amount of time it would take to complete the project? Or, as psych pointed out above, the student ran into some snags along the way which made it impossible to finish on deadline?</p>
<p>Perhaps she erred in not seeking help or advice sooner, but, at 21 years of age, she is lacking in life experience vis a vis those of us who have decades of adult life under our belts.<br>
Let us remember – wisdom comes easily after the fact.</p>
<p>If she has to pay for her mistake by waiting until January to receive her diploma and paying the $5K, so be it. Far more serious and costly mistakes have been made – this incident pales in comparison!</p>
<p>Good luck to your friend, OP – I truly hope she has someone who can bring some perspective to her situation. I have a feeling this issue will have a positive outcome, one way or another.</p>
<p>I don’t remember much hand holding with my senior thesis…maybe a meeting or two before starting then a read of a draft then the final turned in. It’s on line somewhere according to my family but I don’t have the stomach to reread it at this point in life. Perhaps the student picked a poor adviser or perhaps the student didn’t ask for help or perhaps the student bit off more than could be chewed. Regardless it’s not the end of the world and as someone pointed out the costs are miniscule and the senior thesis is simply a hurdle…one of many this student will encounter along the way if heading for med school. I wish the OPs friend the best at resolution.</p>
<p>I am sorry to read about the grief this young student has suffered to date, even if she may share a portion of the blame. I will always be grateful to our kids’ U that they let students choose when they want to walk, even if they completed their requirements and courses a term previously or for some reason fell short. I personally think it’s awful for the family and student when prevented from walking. One of our kids ended up being short courses and credits when she walked but she and we were so glad she was able to walk with her classmates. </p>
<p>Hope this student is able to resolve this soon–preferably well before January which is so far away.</p>
<p>There must be a few kids like this every year, which is probably stressful for the school as well as the student. It would be so much better if the deadline were a few months earlier, so that struggling students have a chance to do revisions before graduation.</p>
<p>As many other posters have remarked, it’s hard to tell exactly what happened.</p>
<p>However, I am really sympathetic to a student who has a hard time completing a math thesis. Andrew Wiles had a gap or two in the first “proof” of Fermat’s last theorem that he issued. I think it took him months to fill in the gap.</p>
<p>Math can be a very tough subject, when one is doing original work–by this, I do not mean an “original” literature review, but rather a novel proof. It is often hard to see where the difficulties will lie. I can easily imagine that that could happen, even if the student and adviser have the best of intentions, and a good working relationship.</p>
<p>At a somewhat later stage, one of my college math profs remarked that he had an opportunity to discuss his Ph.D. thesis problem with John von Neumann. Von Neumann listened carefully, and then said, "I think you will have a problem when you reach the step where you [I can’t recall the exact nature of this problem, but von Neumann nailed it]. Several years of work later, my math prof had reached that point. He found the difficulties insurmountable, and had to change his thesis problem.</p>
<p>In my field, I have “canned” problems that I can give to students. The work is new, but doing it is like shooting fish in a barrel. I also have problems that a student can work on, but that I do not know how to solve. I wouldn’t hinge someone’s Ph.D. thesis on one of those.</p>
<p>Well, I wrote a pretty crummy senior thesis, which was still accepted, so I can’t argue with poetgrl. :)</p>
<p>But it seems to me that there is a structural problem with the thesis arrangements at this particular college, even leaving aside the issue of the difficulty of the math problem that the student was focusing on. I have a sample size of 1, but the advising for Yale theses was excellent, and the deadline was well ahead of graduation–I think it was at least a month ahead, and maybe even more. This prevented awkward, unwelcome surprises.</p>
<p><em>Your</em> advising was excellent. Thesis advising is something that I’d be very heavy to generalize–even amazing professors can be substandard advisors. Heck, even usually great advisors can have a year or a semester where they are overwhelmed by other things and their advising can drop off as a result.</p>