Oregon has 7 public universities and many more community colleges. Some of them have honors colleges, merit scholarships for students with high test scores, and work-study. It seems like there are options for a strong high school student with supportive parents to find a public option for less than 25K per year.
@Ncalrent “IMHO only a fool would incur that kind of debt/expense for an undergrad education. You really don’t need to spend that kind of dough to get the college experience - your kid can go somewhere like Chico, Sonoma, Reno, or Boise for around $8k in tuition under WUE and have a great ‘away college’ dorm experience. No, they aren’t Brown but, they are credible institutions that put out qualified graduates”
Had you just used the word debt it would have clearly been directed specifically to the OP. The use of the term expense (the cost required for a good or service) implies a broader suggestion of foolhardiness directed towards anyone that spends money for an elite school. As an MBA in finance I am sure you are keenly aware of the difference between debt and expenses and the reality that they are not interchangeable.
If your intent was specific to OPs situation we are in agreement. If your statement was intended to suggest that it is foolish in general to spend the costs associated with an elite school education we remain at odds. Please clarify.
Whatever other people do, going $200k into debt for one kid’s college is usually a terrible financial decision unless you have a high income. We don’t have a complete picture of the OP’s finances, but they shouldn’t sacrifice their retirement.
I agree that going into heavy debt to finance a kid’s college education is highly risky. There’re simply too many uncertainties upon graduation. However, a right college education could be worth many times the indebted amount, for the right kid. There’s no absolutely correct decision. Each family is different and needs to assess its own tolerance for financial risk relative to potential reward. For my own family, I would be willing to go into heavy debt for my son’s college education if I had to, but only for perhaps less than a handful of colleges, because I concluded, with relatively high degree of certainty, that he would benefited more from the experience and future opportunities at these colleges than the incremental cost. A different family, under its different circumstances, could reach a different conclusion with equal conviction.
Most people aren’t borrowing ~$200k for college, and I don’t believe anyone can know with any kind of certainty that their kid will be able to repay that kind of money. If parents earn enough and/or have enough assets to pay off the loans if their kid can’t it’s not really a risk. The risk is to families who can’t afford to pay off the debt.
What are the chances that most grads who take those types of loans will earn enough to cover the payments? They can’t be great or we wouldn’t hear so much about the college loan crisis. A better strategy is to pick colleges their family can afford without substantial debt. If the parents can’t afford to pay $2500k/month for college (in mid-career, especially if they’re a 2 income family) why would they think a new college grad can?
“it feels a bit “off” that he could have not taken the path he took, seriously reduced his load, spent less time in test prep and ended up in the same school for the same price.”
Before I even start I am not being critical or judging the lifestyle decisions you have made along the way…but your son’s situation is a result of those decisions. “Gripping” about it as if you are a victim seems as you put it a “bit off”.
You are a graduate of any Ivy League school who opted to pursue a low paying career in education while having one parent stay at home. I respect your decision to pay it forward (and I am sure it was fulfilling) by teaching and allowing your family to benefit from a stay at home parent. Those are noble and well intended decisions that your family personally benefited from.
I am surprised that you only recently ran the costs for college and were surprised having only saved about $40k in advance of having a rising senior. Given your education and role as an educator you had more visibility on future costs and ample time to plan, save and either adjust lifestyles or recalibrate expectations.
It seems a little disingenuous to at this late date be surprised and disappointed having long since reaped the lifestyle benefits that place your son his current position.
There are many people who pursue less fulfilling careers, take second jobs, have both parents fully employed, etc so that they can save enough so that their kids will have options beyond going into debt. Your OP seems to suggest that the only two options available are extreme debt or a state school, when in reality you created this false narrative by not having prepared for this inevitable point in time.
When you bemoan his hard work being wasted (refer quote above) I hardly think it squandered, but in reality his ability to leverage it into an elite school was in fact compromised by your choices as parents. You seem to want your cake and eat it to.
Regardless I wish your son well and hope you are transparent in conveying to him how having a stay at home parent and a parent in public education (both of whom clearly had more lucrative options) benefited him in many ways but regrettably has resulted in fewer college options.
Lastly I post this in response to the frequently repeated CC theme that full pay kids are somehow less worthy of elite schools. It is insulting to every parent out there who has planned and then slaved to save enough for their kids. I am fully supportive of schools providing generous financial aid to those truly in need. I am much less sympathetic to parents who have chosen to not save but choose to complain when their options are limited.
@nocreativity1 As a person who has benefited very much from the forums here, I am thankful for those who take time to post and I always find something useful or interesting from responses… until now. I read your post twice and really can’t come up with any explanation for why you took time to post. You provide nothing related to the original question about the amount of debt parents take to fund undergrad degrees.
While I really try to give people the benefit of the doubt in contexts like a public forum, your reply is so terribly pompous and full of convenient stereotypes I don’t know quite where to start.
Let me try and follow your argument here, it is twisty but I think I got it…
If a person who has access to a high paying job through an elite university degree/connections DOESN’T select that path that person is a “victim” if he/she poses larger questions about access for college for students.
Working with college-going young people of course I am aware of costs of post high school education. Your suggestion that this knowledge provides one plenty of time to plan and save is a bit humorous, though.
Similarly, I’m not sure this narrative is as you say, false. I believe there are are families, many families with 2 parent incomes slightly above average finding themselves in precisely this spot- not much if any need based aid and limited merit options with smart, hard-working children. What to do?
You seem to suggest that you worked harder, made more sacrifices, saved more efficiently, chose more wisely and you are not sympathetic to families like ours because we complain and didn’t save. Of course this isn’t true and a narrative that fits for you. I would hope you would make some effort, even a small one to listen to and hear stories from folks like us. You’ll be surprised.
But on your last point we might agree a bit… a full pay student, a no pay student, a partial pay student… none is more or less worthy. Fantastic, intelligent, world-changing students come from every walk of life and the best college system would be accessible for all of them.
"This summer we have spent considerable time researching schools based on interests and finances and it has been a stunning and depressing journey. "
Simple questions why was it “stunning” if as you suggest you were aware of the costs?
I am not saying I or anyone else worked harder than you. I am saying you made conscious decisions and trade offs that have resulted in your families situation. Suggesting people have the freedom and responsibility to prepare for inevitable financial responsibilities isn’t pompous it’s the truth.
When you say “Your suggestion that this knowledge provides one plenty of time to plan and save is a bit humorous”, you are implying an inability to effectuate an outcome…translation being a victim.
As long as we are personalizing this my father was a public school music teacher for 34 years (until his death). In preparation for my eventual educational needs my mother worked two jobs, I worked every summer on commercial fishing boats and my dad provided private lessons and taught drivers ed. When the time came for college we were close to being able to afford it but I still required loans. Not once did we act “stunned or surprised” as you were. Didn’t work harder just took personal responsibility, prepared and made it work.
I am suggesting you should own the decisions and lifestyle you choose. With a family income of $160,000 that you mention on a separate thread (now that your wife is back at work) you clearly had the capacity to avoid this straw man argument of extreme debt vs state school. Again your choices have been noble but they have consequences.
One last point, when you say…“If a person who has access to a high paying job through an elite university degree/connections DOESN’T select that path that person is a “victim” if he/she poses larger questions about access for college for students.”
You seem unable to distinguish between access and financing. Your kid has “access” you are unable to provide the requisite financing based on your chosen life path.
Wow. I was thinking he was probably making in the 40-50K/year range like me (typical teacher salary around here)…which is why I was a little confused about Brown giving a Net Price of 47K. I ran it and came up with 19K net price…mostly because DS has a lot of money saved in an UTMA.
OP- I’d just cashflow state school. Sounds like it would be easy for you to do.
Totally off-topic, but I just returned from a vacation in Oregon. It’s so beautiful. It has it all: stunning coast, gorgeous forests, lakes, rivers, desert, cities, you name it. Why go away when there are great instate options and so much to do? Love Oregon!
Just 2 things and then I think we just agree to not agree…
Do you believe that comparing our experiences financing our own educations is similar to what our own children are experiencing today? My own father self-financed his entire University of Oregon 4 year undergrad degree through summer farm work. I was able to graduate from an expensive private east coast school and have all debt paid within 5 years as was the experience of most of my peers. Tell that to college students today and they laugh at us (if we are lucky or sock us in the mouth)! There is no point in talking about the good ole days. They are irrelevant to the realities kids today experience.
Not only am able to see the difference between access and financing, it is precisely the question I posed originally. Access IS financing. And the question raised is if families such as our are financing through 100k plus in loans. That doesn’t feel wise and I asked for others’ perspectives (and still would welcome yours).
If your income is in the 160K range AND your kid is a high achiever, he’d get a lot of financial aid at NESCAC colleges (and other top LACs in the Midwest = east&midwest would add a boost for geographical diversity since you’re from the PNW).
Run the NPC on Vassar, Skidmore, Bates, Grinnell, Carleton, Macalester, Williams.
However, costs aren’t likely to be below 25-30k anywhere, except at instate public universities where applicants qualify for honors college.
(BTW, I agree that any experience that took place before 2000 and, especially, before 2009, is irrelevant to today’s kids’ problems. College costs have become a huge problem, impacting even the economy through a majority of college graduates’ inability to buying homes or starting a family due to paying back loans.)
@JD777 In response to your question asking if it is more complex or challenging to finance an education today… absolutely! We are in agreement. That is why it is incumbent on a parent to be informed and plan ahead. Particularly someone in the education field such as yourself who claims to have been stunned.
There are several things I believe we agree on. You make $160,000 a year, you choose to be a teacher, you choose to have a stay at home parent, college is expensive these days, and going into extreme debt is a very bad option.
Additionally we almost agree in the simple equation that financing = access. You seem however to believe they are fixed or set variables where I believe both sides of the equation require a student and family to participate. Access is a function of a students merit, performance and achievement while financing is a function of financial need net of planning. Your son has access assuming his application is worthy, his lack of financing is a function of the aforementioned choices you have made.
In terms of your original question going into $100k of debt is just as ill advised as not contemplating, preparing, and adjusting for college expenses until a kids senior year.
I would start by looking at the family’s net worth. If a family has a net worth of $200k, then spending $200k on college is financial suicide. It doesn’t matter how much better an OOS or private option might be, if it’s unaffordable. If your net worth is $1.5M, then the college is affordable, and you could pay out of assets without a loan, ignoring issues like retirement account withdrawal penalties.
I pretty much agree with everything @Nocreativity1 has stated. When we started having kids in early 2000, it was common knowledge that college costs 18 - 21 years later would be about 150k for public college and 250k+ for private college. With this information my wife and I set up 529 plans for both our kids right after their birthd. It’s no different than setting aside 10% or more of your salary each year for our retirement. With finances, it’s critical to plan ahead by saving early and often. Use money and investments to your advantage (e.g. reinvested dividends, compounded interest, purcashing appreciating assets, etc.). I see way too many parents posting on CC that they always expected their kid to attend an elite private college but never saved (or saved very little) to that goal. With this mentality, you are setting yourself up for failure and will likely have disappointed kids.
Off my soap box. Maybe these threads will help future parents who are now kids attending college and wanting to raise a family 5 or 10 years from now?
I don’t think colleges are all that much different in price now than they were when we went. My sister went to Middlebury in the 70’s and it was $5000/yr. My father made about $25k per year and there were 5 more kids at home (hot lunch at 50 cents per day was still $2.50 per day and that was hard for my family). Yes, Middlebury expected 20% of the family income, thus the reason she lasted one year and then went to the state school. No student loans available since we were a ‘middle income’ family.
Now schools want that same 20% of family income but IMO, do offer more financing options. My kids were able to borrow a little, get some FA, work to pay some of it (and they could have worked more). They chose schools that fit the budget, where there were merit scholarships, where the COL was low. No, they didn’t go to Brown or MIT but there were plenty of schools to choose from without borrowing $150k.
If a student/family DOES choose to borrow that much, I think that is also a decision to work like crazy for many years after college. The option to be a forest ranger or a part time musician or a writer without income for years is really no longer an option. At 18, you (or the family) have decided you are going to have a big debt to repay and you need big bucks to make those payments. One of my kids is working like a real adult and she’s not too crazy about it, but she can walk away as she doesn’t have a huge student loan. The other is riding horses and leading trail rides. Loves it. Is poor but happy.
JD7777 "We saved almost every spare dollar as he grew up in a 529 and have roughly 40,000 saved for him, "
Just so we are clear that suggests you saved around $1,600 a year per the first 18 years of your son’s life assuming a fairly modest investment return. Did you really think that would pay for college?
Still not sure why you were stunned? Relative to the savings percentages of most this seems modest even prior to your current income.
I have to agree with @Nocreativity1 as well. I went to an elite university and then law school and made a very high salary until I stopped working when my kids were born. My now ex-husband went to a non-elite State school, but became very financially successful such that we are not griping about being full pay for our D17 and will be for our S20. I have been aware for years that private college would be approx $250k. I’m not sure how someone in education would be shocked by this. We live in a wealthy community and the parents here are about evenly split between elite grads and non-elite grads. You really don’t know which unless a specific conversation brings it up. OP, your child will find the right fit, and all his hard work, good grades, etc are not for naught. They have set him up for success in college and in life. Be thankful for that.
I was one ‘totally shocked’ at the price of college when my kids got there. I was also shocked that many students now had perfect grades and perfect SAT scores. Back in my day, getting ‘double 700s’ on the SAT was really very good. Having a few B’s on the transcript didn’t doom you to the state directional college or beauty school. My hs didn’t even have AP courses (there was a college right down the street if you wanted a college level course). .
Why? Because in the 35 years since I’d been in school I was more worried about the costs of day care and groceries and ski tickets rising. Unless you are paying tuition, there really is no reason to suspect that tuition is now 10x what it once was. Everyone knows it ‘costs more’ but looking at the actual dollar amount is shocking. Once I stopped paying $625 per month for daycare (x2), I didn’t follow the cost of child care. (OMG it’s $1775/mo!!! I just looked that up. I can tell you I don’t make 3x what I made in the early 2000s when I was paying $625.)
So shocked? Yes. This inflation thing sneaks up on you.
to answer your original question from my midwest suburban neighborhood, we know LOTS of people in our town with probably similar incomes/lifestyles to you. While people don’t talk about loans they take out or not, you can see where their kids are all going, and you hear about the merit based or athletic scholarships.
I truly don’t think people AROUND US are taking out 100K in loans for a kid when these families have 2, 3. 4 or more kids . The kids we know going to elite/hyps schools are: QuestBridge, single parent, trust fund/development, parent in med-school, urm athletic, kids of surgeons, non-working parents from inheritance. The kid with probably similar lifestyle/income to you around the corner got into Cornell; but is at a small state Wesleyan university on a merit scholarship because dad didn’t want to take out huge loans (dad’s salary is public)… I’d say most kids in our microcosm go to state colleges in state or nearby with the midwest student exchange, or locally to privates with merit.
no right or wrong, just wanted to share what I’m seeing. My own kids: merit at state schools; and looking around now for my high-ish stats kid who will probably end up at our state school!