I’ll admit, I’m probably not normal in the amount of thought/time I’ve put into the college savings thing, but I had limited means and it was a lot of money, so for me it has been a lot like planning for retirement…marathon thinking. I started with those calculators when they were babies saying I needed to save an ungodly amount of money and getting the crap scared out of me. After that it was, “Ok, I can’t save that much, so what can I do, and how can I get there?” I had a spreadsheet and figured if I had one year of tuition saved by age 5, two years by age 10, three years by age 15 and four years by age 20 we were good. To assess how I was doing, I needed to know the current tuition rate, so I always kept up on it. I was running net price calculators when my kids were 5! LOL But…I’m a little obsessive.
But, with 160K income and 40K saved, OP is still in a lot better place than most. Plus the kid has the stats to get merit at some schools. I think they can still find some great options that won’t require any debt.
I have an Ivy-level undergrad diploma of my own collecting dust somewhere (basement? back of a closet?) so I totally get the “famous name vs. good state U” question. It’s something those places set us up to think about.
Fortunately for our family budget, my kid didn’t have an ivy-peer profile in the K-12 years. I honestly don’t know what kind of hoops we would have been tempted to leap through if she had had one. If an ivy-peer had met our FAFSA-level need, borrowing the $15k each year difference between what we could pay out of pocket, and what our FAFSA need was, might have looked justifiable.
No parent debt here. Kid got through with less than the standard junior and senior year worth of standard federal loans by following the CC to State U route. Now she’s in an MFA program fully funded by her university. We got really lucky.
https://www.chronicle.com/interactives/tuition-and-fees has historical tuition from 1998 to 2018 (click on a college to see its history; you also have the option to adjust for inflation and include room and board). For example, Brown tuition was $24,332 ($37,572 adjusted for inflation) in 1998, and $55,656 in 2018 (48% higher than in 1998 with inflation adjustment).
However, it is not as convenient to look for earlier costs, since that may require more digging for individual colleges.
Of course, historical financial aid is much harder to compare and put into a standardized easy to read format than list price tuition.
I don’t know of anyone with $200K of loans, but I know of a few with $100K ones. None are for top 20 schools. Some are smaller private, some OOS public. Some tell me the debt is owed by their kids. I’m not exactly sure how they did that. But I know my former young co-worker had $100K for a small private school. He was paying off his parents’ PLUS loans. He wishes now he had gone a different route. He left us a few months ago for a job near Chicago making 3X what he made with us by saving his per diems and living very frugally- for the sole purpose of paying off his loans.
You can add me to the list of shocked and angry during the first go around. Over the years, I had heard so many people tell me about how Johnny and Sue got “full rides” to our in-state schools. I never thought to question it. My sister and I were given enough in scholarships to cover tuition for me and everything for her. Of course, a $3K scholarship went a lot further back then! My Alma mater also cost $14K when my older S was in middle school. I thought we would be in awesome shape. Surely, my high stats kid would get a good Scholarship. However, When he applied, it was $26K - and that was our cheap option. William and Mary was $36K. (Our “how in the blank do they think we can afford that” EFC number was $28K BTW.) And where were these free rides? Either they were lying or poor and didn’t understand they got need based aid. My Alma mater gave him $0. I also now know W&M doesn’t give any merit except for the 1693. My S was the alternate. If 1 of the 8 had turned it down, he would have gone there. But the last kid accepted at the 11th hour. His consolation prize? Zero! You get all loans! Ok they give you a $3000 research stipend. Whoopee. But yet, I’m still told of kids who went for free. I don’t know how. I would have thought these parents made too much, but I dunno…
Honestly, fwiw I am glad they did all accept. He fortunately did apply to a very strong in-state LAC and got a large merit award covering tuition with the guarantee that the scholarship would increase with any increase in tuition/fees. He is where he belongs. I think your S will find his place as well. But yeah, it is a sticker shock and can be a highly aggravating and frustrating process.
Also I understand that while it seems that you should be able to save so much more now that you have 2 incomes, for whatever reasons, it can be hard. We always had 2 incomes, but we made significantly less for much of the time. I wonder how we did it, and truth be told we could go back to that. But having to leave the pharmacy empty handed because the non-life threatening meds were too $$$, going back to shopping at Goodwill, and cutting my own hair - it’s a frizzy mess anyway, who will notice if it’s straight? Not taking any vacations for years… Yeah, it can be done but ugh. It’s a tough pill to swallow, and I don’t mind if someone whines or vents about it a little.
Just a tiny vent about an assumption many posters are making…folks are assuming that someone who “works in education” will be well-versed in college costs as part of their work.
I teach public school.
I teach very small children with very severe disabilities. I can assure you that my many years of “work in education” has given me zero insight or inside information about college issues. I imagine it is the same for anyone teaching elementary school, probably middle school, and those special education students that follow a non-standard curriculum/diploma option. One cannot assume that someone who teaches in an unspecified area of education has any more insight than someone who holds any other job in the universe. Teachers have enough to handle just to keep up with what their students need right now…college planning for young students has not been added to that so far (thankfully).
I honestly don’t get why the resentment and judgment from some posters directed at a public school teacher who asked a sincere question. OP, I think others have covered the main points: a strong student like your son will get good merit money at in-state publics and less selective LACs; some WUE options are pretty decent; and, maybe most important…Brown was not a good NPC to run if you want to see what good need based aid from selective and generous schools looks like. Try running HYPSM, Pomona, Carleton, Amherst. That’ll give you a better idea of best possible need based aid. Most two teacher families I know are pleasantly surprised. The bad news is that those are the best, there aren’t a lot of them, and they’re hard to get into.
To answer your question: most people I know in your situation are not taking out huge loans. Yes, they are setting limits, such as cost of in state schools. But they are often applying to a range of schools, some which might be academic reaches but would be affordable with need based aid, others that might offer good merit, and then a group of in-state or auto-merit options as financial safeties. It usually works out with kids finding a good fit and parents satisfied with the cost, which is covered from savings, current income and maybe some loans. UO and OSU have pretty good merit, WSU is fairly reasonable for out of state WUE, Montana State has some great full ride merit, etc. You can start with a list like that, ask for help from CC for merit options (ASU Barrett, Alabama, etc.), and add in some of the selective schools if the NPCs look okay. Good luck!
@iwantalltheinfo “Just a tiny vent about an assumption many posters are making…folks are assuming that someone who “works in education” will be well-versed in college costs as part of their work.”
Actually it wasn’t an assumption. It was based on reading the entirety of the thread and the OPs own words. OP states; “Working with college-going young people of course I am aware of costs of post high school education.” I hope you feel better about your “vent” with OPs words in mind.
I believe the point was that a parent with an elite college degree, in the education field, with an income of $160k, and a child approaching college age has all of the tools and advantages necessary to make themselves aware of what the costs look like.
Surely they should know that setting aside $1,600 a year won’t allow their kid the freedom to choose any school they want. The parents can either figure out a way to save more or should have recalibrated both their and the child’s expectations. But claiming to be blindsided by this inevitable situation and stating “it feels a bit off that he could have not taken the path he took, seriously reduced his load, spent less time in test prep and ended up in the same school for the same price”, suggests victimhood to me.
OPs kids work was not wasted and he has numerous outstanding opportunities. He has access to plenty of “college experiences” but is limited financially based on his parents savings shortfall and the increased costs of an education, which according to OP “of course I was aware of”.
@politeperson “I honestly don’t get why the resentment and judgment from some posters directed at a public school teacher who asked a sincere question.”
In my case there is neither resentment or judgement. I feel empathy for the OPs disappointment. However I view CC as a place where people come for advise, insight and cautionary tales. That being the case, if the predicament OP is facing is self inflicted (in my opinion) I will express this view so that the future reader can make their own assessment, act accordingly and hopefully avoid only having a modest amount saved after 18 years. Not telling someone what they want to hear isn’t judging it is often simply telling the truth.
Going back to the original post, I think a lot of families cannot actually afford their EFC. We most certainly cannot with 2 kids and my spouse in his late 50’s. We would not take significant debt for an undergrad degree for a student. If you had NO other debt at all (no mortgage, other loans) I could see using loans as a way to spread out payments. Honestly, the best thing we did was sit down with an independent financial advisor who ripped apart our finances, made recommendations for the future, and told us what we could ACTUALLY afford for college. We are upper middle class, high COL area. Look at the average incomes for these schools. The average family income at Dartmouth and Brown is over 200K a year. 20%+ of families at those schools earn over 630K a year. We found this depressing initially too. But mourn quickly and move on and figure out what you can safely do. Let your kid take federal student loans if necessary. Do not cosign for above that amount. Your kid will not thank you later. If you already have significant debt (mortgage, etc), see what you can do with cash flow. If you are looking at loans, what can you very comfortably pay off in no more than 6-8 years and well before retirement.
Also, I think it’s a mistake to assume that there are not gifted and very intelligent high achievers at any institution. My kid dual enrolled for 2 years at an urban community college. They had AMAZING stories of what some students did after leaving their program. Most finished their 4 year at a state school, but the sky was the limit for grad school. And for the record many of those CC teachers were adjunct at fancy private schools you’d recognize the names of.
My ACT 34/GPA 4.0/32 college credits '19 high school grad is heading to a top 50 state flagship for less than 25K a year. I feel zero sadness about that. He did get some decent offers from private schools with merit. But once his 2 flagship options started throwing money at him and faculty directly started wooing him all bets were off. Don’t assume life is that much worse at flagship. If he gets the ACT score up a bit that may help if you are merit hunting.
As a data point, the 25%-75% ACT scores at the flagship my kid is heading to is 27-32. That means 25% of the student body has elite stats ABOVE those stats. Not that I believe in perfect correlation of ACT scores and post college achievement. In a population of 40K students that means about 10K of those students are elite stat. That is greater than the student population at many “elite” schools. High buck privates have not cornered the market on elite students. Your kid can find a peer group and a quality education at many schools. This board tends to have an elite or bust vibe that doesn’t reflect the real world.
@JD7777 “This board tends to have an elite or bust vibe that doesn’t reflect the real world.” You are so right."
Don’t you think your statement; " it feels a bit “off” that he could have not taken the path he took, seriously reduced his load, spent less time in test prep and ended up in the same school for the same price", embodies the elite or bust mentality you seem offended by?
I have gone through the thread and can’t find anyone diminishing the quality of education at a state school or non “elite”. Your aforementioned being the exception by suggesting “ending up at the same school” is somehow less satisfactory or rewarding of his efforts. Others including myself have repeatedly congratulated your son on his fantastic results and assured all that they won’t be wasted at any number of great alternative and cost efficient schools.
I always laugh when I hear kids say, “Money is not a problem.” Unless these parents happen to have a $300k wad of cash lying around, chances are, there’s going to be significant amounts of debt. Even for affluent parents, that’s a huge strain for even half that amount. I question the wisdom of any parent that co-signs that kind of debt over to their kids for a big name university. Unfortunately, they do and it sets these young adults up to be financially crippled for many years to come.
90 posts! I want to extend a genuine thanks to those that participated. I came at this with questions that are really quite personal (how much debt are folks really taking on for an undergrad degree) and while there were some tangents (some interesting tangents) I was able to glean a lot. Thanks to those who took the time to post, thanks to those who were brave enough to share mistakes and thanks to a few posters who contacted me outside the thread with kind offers and useful suggestions (how to deal with nonproductive posters ) A lot of work ahead of us and I remember every parent from the class above us telling how fast this 12th grade year goes.
I met with my old college friends this weekend and have 2 differing tales…One’s D got into the Ivy - with no money. She leaves for U Del Honors College next week for approximately $50k less per year!
The other turned down in state options and is going to JMU for full price, all on loans, to major in theater design. With several younger siblings at home. So people are going into huge debt, and not always for the Ivy/Top 20 dream. Some people really just don’t like saying no their kids.
NJmom- I know people in real life in debt up to their eyeballs for Hofstra, Pace, Villanova, Quinnipiac, Seton Hall, Drexel.
So no, not an Ivy/Top 20 phenomenon at all. People have short memories- I remember talking to an acquaintance back in 2009-- in one week, she and her husband became unemployed (he was at Lehman, she was at Bear Stearns); their home lost 30% of its value overnight, AND their retirement savings (mostly in company stock, how dumb is that?) evaporated. The hat trick of the 2008 financial crisis.
So everyone you talk to who plans to “use my house as an ATM” has drunk the kool aid from their real estate agent- that prices only go up, never down; that a collaterized loan is a better deal then no loan; that their income will always be high enough to cover their monthly “nut” AND cover their debt payments (consumer, mortgage, education- debt is debt when it’s staring you in the face).
@foobarb1 “This board tends to have an elite or bust vibe that doesn’t reflect the real world.” You are so right"
I may have missed it but where in this thread is such an “elite or bust” vibe displayed? Every post I read seemed to encourage OP that plenty of great non elite options existed.
I may have missed it but where in this thread is such an “elite or bust” vibe >displayed?
Look at where the traffic is on CC. Typically, it is on the Ivy league boards or other elite schools. There are only 8 Ivy league schools in the country but they get a disproportionate amount of attention on CC. Millions of students enroll in community colleges but there is little to no activity relating to individual community colleges on CC.
Well, to be fair, it’s not like those going to community college really need a support group and advice to get in, so it makes sense they’re not posting here.
But, this thread in particular doesn’t seem elite or bust to me.
Foobar- your point about the traffic on CC re: Community Colleges is absurd. Most students attending community college have no choice about where to go- they live at home, they work, and they attend the only CC which is commutable based on their situation. So why would they post on a message board about how to pick a CC? They don’t pick- it’s the local CC or bust. Furthermore, there doesn’t need to be a thread about “how do I get in to my local CC”- it’s either open enrollment, where anyone with a high school diploma or a GED in the local area is an auto-admit, or the requirements are well known to every HS guidance counselor, principal, and English teacher in the state.
What are you expecting kids to post: “The last bus to my CC ends at 8 pm, but my chem lab runs until 8:15-- how am I going to get home after my lab?” That’s a real problem- the lack of public transportation (or limited public transportation) for many CC’s, but most kids in that situation end up registering for an earlier class or get a ride home with a classmate. They don’t need a national audience to answer their highly local, highly specific CC question.
Absurd? The demographics on CC differs from the overall population. 70% of college students attend public colleges (yes, including community and directional 4 year colleges) but most of the activity and questions here on CC is focused on elite schools including this thread.
) A lot of work ahead of us and I remember every parent from the class above us telling how fast this 12th grade year goes.