Law Placement for Chicago and its Peers

Cue7 · March 10, 2009, 6:00pm

To Hekau and others interested, here is the publicly available info of law placement for several of Chicago’s peers:

Yale University:

<a href=“http://www.yale.edu/career/students/gradprof/lawschool/media/lawstats.pdf[/url]”>http://www.yale.edu/career/students/gradprof/lawschool/media/lawstats.pdf</a>

The University of Pennsylvania:

[Career</a> Services, University of Pennsylvania](<a href=“http://www.vpul.upenn.edu/careerservices/gradprof/law/law_stats.html]Career”>http://www.vpul.upenn.edu/careerservices/gradprof/law/law_stats.html)

Princeton University:

[Stats</a> « Office of Career Services « Princeton University](<a href=“Search Opportunities | Human Resources”>Search Opportunities | Human Resources)

Stanford University:

<a href=“http://www.stanford.edu/group/SPLS/documents/AdmitRatesMay08.pdf[/url]”>http://www.stanford.edu/group/SPLS/documents/AdmitRatesMay08.pdf</a>

Cornell University (Scroll down to the last page):

<a href=“Career Services | Student & Campus Life | Cornell University”>Career Services | Student & Campus Life | Cornell University;

Georgetown University:

[Law</a> School Admission Statistics for Georgetown Students (2007/2006)](<a href=“Cawley Career Education Center | Georgetown University”>Cawley Career Education Center | Georgetown University)

The University of California at Berkeley:

[Career</a> Center - Profile of Law School Admissions - UC Berkeley](<a href=“http://career.berkeley.edu/law/lawStats.stm]Career”>http://career.berkeley.edu/law/lawStats.stm)

Hekau, The University of Chicago frustratingly does not have its law placement numbers available to the public. Your son can make an appt with the pre-law advisor, however, look at Chicago’s stats, and then compare them to all the information found here. While your son should review the hard data, I am disappointed to note that Chicago should come in behind every single school mentioned in this thread.

If your son does review Chicago’s law placement and discusses it with you, please share some of your findings with the board. I would be curious to see how Chicago undergrads fare at schools such as Penn, Duke, etc. When I was an undergrad at Chicago, the numbers were pretty bad - maybe 3-4 each year at Harvard, 2-3 to Penn, 2-3 at Duke, etc.

es_four · March 10, 2009, 8:42pm

Great post Cue7; thank you for the information.

JHS · March 10, 2009, 9:10pm

Wow! Those sheets are interesting. The difference between Yale and Stanford (or Princeton) is stunning – about the same number of people matriculating at law schools (but a lower number relative to class size at Stanford), but the quality difference is amazing. Yale grads at Harvard, Stanford or Yale: 85. Stanford grads at Harvard, Stanford or Yale: 56. Princeton doesn’t provide matriculation numbers, but based on the ratio of acceptances to matriculations at Yale and Stanford, Princeton’s numbers imply that the number of Princetonians at Harvard, Stanford or Yale Law is in the mid-30s.

Fully half of the Yale students who went to law school went to one of Harvard, Stanford, Yale, Columbia, or Penn.

Hekau · March 10, 2009, 9:26pm

Thanks Cue7, I asked my son to get this information soon and I’ll definitely share with the board when he reports back.(In other words I nagged him:) )

Machiavelli12 · March 11, 2009, 12:10am

Thanks because I would really appreciate the information as well.

uchicagoalum · March 11, 2009, 1:12am

Underappreciated post.

Cue7 · March 11, 2009, 1:28am

Hekau - Thanks so much! I don’t think Chicago students can copy the sheets, but if your son could just get a sense of the raw numbers of Chicago grads at top schools, that’d be great. To put this roughly in perspective, this would be what I would consider a pretty good showing at Chicago (with the numbers of the peer schools in mind). These are what I hope would be the actual number of students that MATRICULATE at each of these schools:

Yale: 3-4 students per year
Harvard: 7-10 students per year

Columbia: 8-10 students per year
NYU: 8-10 students per year
Chicago: 15-20 students per year

Penn: 5-8 students per year
Michigan: 8-12 students per year
Northwestern: 8-12 students per year
Duke: 4-6 students per year

These raw numbers are where Chicago should be to compete favorably against Penn and Cornell. I’m also adjusting the numbers a bit to reflect more of a midwest bias (and therefore more representation at Northwestern or Michigan in comparison to Chicago’s east coast peer colleges). Furthermore, just like with top undergrads and their top law school counterparts, I’m hoping for a good deal of “Chicago incest” (i.e. lots of U of C undergrads represented at Chicago Law). I’m not expecting Yale-like placement here, but I’d hope that recently, Chicago has gotten in line with some of its “lower” peers such as UPenn or Cornell.

Cue7 · March 14, 2009, 1:12pm

Hekau or anyone else at the U of C - anyone take a quick glance in the pre-law office for Chicago’s placement stats? I’m still curious about this.

idad · March 14, 2009, 4:28pm

Most phones have cameras…

Hekau · March 14, 2009, 11:01pm

Son heard back from pre law advisor, he has a meeting with her after the break, apparently she is very busy/booked for the next three weeks.

Son doesn’t have a ‘fancy’ camera phone but could probably borrow one.

I have to admit, these last few days son has been offered some mind blowing opportunities that I would never have even thought of…Chicago may be behind in the preprofessional area but he’s been offered some very cool internships and just got a grant to study in Russia.

I promise I will post what he finds just as soon as he has the meeting. I’m going to guess small numbers at YHS, but larger at the rest of the top 14. There just aren’t that many Chicago kids getting 3.8+s. I’m guessing again, but my son will probably/maybe bring in a high 3.6 to a 3.7 ish/maybe maybe high 3.7ish gpa when all is said and done.(And his advisor said he was her top student…)

So no YHS for him, but I’m getting the inkling that Chicago may be opening doors I had never thought of…

Hekau · March 14, 2009, 11:07pm

Son heard back from pre law advisor, he has a meeting with her after the break, apparently she is very busy/booked for the next three weeks.

Son doesn’t have a ‘fancy’ camera phone but could probably borrow one.

I have to admit, these last few days son has been offered some mind blowing opportunities that I would never have even thought of…Chicago may be behind in the preprofessional area but he’s been offered some very cool internships and just got a grant to study in Russia.

I promise I will post what he finds just as soon as he has the meeting. I’m going to guess small numbers at YHS, but larger at the rest of the top 14. There just aren’t that many Chicago kids getting 3.8+s. I’m guessing again, but my son will probably/maybe bring in a high 3.6 to a 3.7 ish/maybe maybe high 3.7ish gpa when all is said and done.(And his advisor said he was her top student…)

So no YHS for him, but I’m getting the inkling that Chicago may be opening doors I had never thought of…

Cue7 · March 15, 2009, 1:00am

Hey Hekau - Thanks so much! Also, please keep in mind that for the very, very top schools such as Yale and Stanford they exercise some discretion when reviewing applicants. So a 3.7 from Chicago (combined with say, a 173 - about the average LSAT for Harvard) would still be competitive because at schools such as Yale and Stanford, they do adjust a bit for the rigor of a college.

For more info on this, please go here:

[Value</a> of College or University in Law School Admissions](<a href=“http://www.deloggio.com/academic/college.htm]Value”>http://www.deloggio.com/academic/college.htm)

Please note, schools that rely more on numbers to keep them afloat in the rankings (schools such as NYU, Penn, Duke, etc.), the raw GPA matters more, and rigor of a college matters less. Again, for your son, MAXIMIZING his GPA, and also FOCUSING HARD on the LSAT matters the most.

Aside from that, yah, Chicago will provide amazing educational opportunities - both in Chicago and around the world. Also, as I’ve said before, I think Chicago is really improving on the pre-professional placement front. When I graduated in 2000, U of C students weren’t nearly as savvy or on point as they are now. With the recent uptick in selectivity, I’d imagine the classes of 2012 onward do just as well as students at Chicago’s immediate peers.

As another quick aside, this may have changed, but when I was at Chicago, a 3.75+ made you one of the top students there - a shoo-in for phi beta kappa and in the running for the position of student marshal. Is that different now? If not, that gives you a sense of where your son stands at U of C. A 3.7+ at Chicago is very, very impressive.

I’m assuming most of the better U of C applicants get a GPA in the range of 3.5-3.6, and I’m hoping there will be strong representation at law schools such as Chicago, Michigan, Northwestern, UPenn, Virginia, Cornell, etc. Thanks so much again Hekau, and I look forward to hearing the results! (Even if your son just goes by memory or whatever - taking pictures might look a bit conspicuous).

newmassdad · March 15, 2009, 10:21pm

The way to figure out who has the top GPA in a class is to see who is selected PBK as a junior/3rd year. They can only select a small fraction of the total PBK as juniors, so, since PBK is mostly GPA driven, the ones at the very top get a nod the end of 3rd year. If they also are selected for student marshall, you can surmise that the U is grooming them for top fellowships and scholarships. This all gets published in the U’s Chronicle each year and posted on the web, in June I think, so it is not hard to see who the “stars” are. Here’s the list for 07, which mixes in all years, but it is not hard to figure out who is who. [Graduate</a> Honors](<a href=“http://chronicle.uchicago.edu/070607/undergradawardlist.shtml]Graduate”>Graduate Honors)

Cue7 · April 6, 2009, 1:59pm

Hekau - did your son tell you Chicago’s exact law school placement stats after meeting with the Chicago pre-law advisor?

Or, to current chicago students applying to law school - did any of you meet with the pre-law advisor, and see Chicago’s law school placement list? If we could see some hard numbers, we could really dispel some of the rumors that have been floating around on this board.

Again, to make Chicago competitive with its peers on this front, here are the ballpark numbers the U of C would need:

Yale Law: 3-4 Students a year
Harvard Law: 8-10 Students a Year
Stanford Law: 3-4 Students a year

Chicago Law: 14-16 students a year
NYU Law: 8-10 Students a year
Columbia Law: 8-10 Students a year

Michigan Law: 8-10 Students a year
Northwestern Law: 6-8 students a year

Penn/Virginia/Duke: 5-7 students year

Georgetown: 8-10 Students a year

(I’m adjusting for regional bias - so U of C should place very well at Chicago Law, Michigan Law, and Northwestern Law)

How do the actual numbers measure up?

FB_lalaland · April 6, 2009, 5:08pm

Cue7: Why doesn’t Chicago just inflate everyone’s mark. I mean students can experience a rigorous education and get great marks at the same time right? Does Chicago hate pre-professionalism that much?

If I cannot get in good law school or med school, what else can I do? (I always think going to med school and law school is the only way to get a good wage. Am I wrong?)

maverick1978 · April 6, 2009, 5:36pm

Chicago’s grade deflation is a mystery to us all. However, I can assure you that going to Chicago will not keep you out of a “top 10” law school (having done so myself). Getting a “good enough” GPA is still possible, and schools do take into account the rigor of the school from which the applicant is applying. The LSAT is the most important factor for law school admissions.

idad · April 6, 2009, 5:46pm

The discussion is about getting into a top law or medical school. Most Chicago grads with a decent GPA can get into a good med school or decent law school. So if getting a good wage is the issue, one shouldn’t worry too much. Andrew Abbott reported that Chicago grads typically end up in the upper 5% of income earners.

I’m not sure how important getting into a “top” medical school is. A relative who graduated from a top Ivy enrolled in mid level state med school, graduated and won a residency at a very prestigious medical center, and is just finishing up as Chief Resident in Neurology.

Law Placement for Chicago and its Peers

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