Law School Loans Possibly Looming

Parent Cafe
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<p>He won’t hear it coming from you – you need a third party who’s a law school grad to deliver this message.</p>

<p>I’ve been doing LSAT prep and law school admissions counseling for 15 years, and I’ve been a legal career counselor for 6. I have about a 50% rate of getting fired at the first law school admissions session because I tell many prospective clients that I don’t think law school is a smart choice for them at this time. So the students don’t always want to hear it from a professional, either, but the odds are better with a third party than with a mom.</p>

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<p>I know no one ever thinks this will happen with them, but my sister’s kid went for one year only (a small school I’d heard of, as if I would know, but ranked 7th in a particular area iirc) and now is in debt 60k and working as a paralegal at a very unattractive salary. Couldn’t even get a raise by getting a paralegal cert. Just a risk to consider. But sounds like he should read that law school forum (or talk to Hanna.)</p>

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When I mentioned the availability of programs like this to my son, he called it “indentured servitude.” I saw immediately what my son is thinking. A program like that is wonderful if that is what the student wants to be doing with their law degree – but a hefty burden for someone who would prefer to take a different career path. I’d note that my son is single parent who probably is very much aware of the need for some flexibility in employment options-- so being tied down to a particular job because of debt would be particularly unattractive to him.</p>

<p>But the bottom line is that my 31 year old son is dealing with the sort of real life, young adult problems that recent college grads don’t anticipate or think about when they are signing the line to take on huge debt: things like costs for his own son’s schooling, or the desire to earn enough to qualify for a mortgage and buy a house. </p>

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<p>I really appreciate everyone’s comments. Hard conversation tonight as he did not get into his 1st choice His alma mater and actually reasonably priced) and is planning to enroll in his 2nd choice. 2nd choice is not ranked, is offering decent aid but will still mean substantial debt. Totally different part of the country so all sorts of adjustments/costs. I am still on the bandwagon of “come home for a year and work and then make this move possibly to your alma mater (if LSAT goes up and GPA goes up with final classes he is finishing this summer)” He doesn’t want to hear it! He will be having a conversation with his uncle (a non-practicing attorney) who has tried to steer him toward a year off, more careful selection of school. I know that there are worse problems in the world but I just hate to see him sign on for the debt with prospects unknown. I have discussed serving in the military or federal service…very good ideas. I guess the question will be: Can he adjust, establish and pass? Wish I had the crystal ball but I already know that a hard-charging 22 year old guy is his own best friend and worst enemy! Thanks again to everyone for your advice and support!</p>

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<p>Were you able to get a sense from him of what he wants to DO with that law degree? </p>

<p>If he takes only federal loans for school, then he will be able to go on an income based repayment plan no matter what — (the program that forgives the debt after 20 years, not the 10-year deal available for public service jobs)… but it would be a shame if he goes to a law school in the hopes of a particular career path and then find that his choice of school foreclosed that path. </p>

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<p>Momrules,
I know you’ve heard it every which way but I’ll add on. My DH is an attorney and can hardly wait to get out of the rat race. He constantly tells me how the whole practice of law has changed. Every week he shows me another article about some law firm or another laying off partners, associates and staff. There are way too many law school graduates for available legal jobs. As you have heard here, many students take one, two, three and even more years off before starting law school. My future DIL just finished her 2L year at Yale, and she took 4 years off between college and law school. 1/3 of her classmates took 3 or more years off. Posters are correct in telling you that unless your son is admitted to one of the Top 14 law schools or a regional school in an area he would be happy to settle and hang up a shingle, he will be drowning in debt which will be a yoke around his neck for decades.</p>

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I feel sorry for the new generation. It seems it requires more and more years (and money) to establish a career in many fields.</p>

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<p>Actually, I started law school in 1974 — I was going to law school straight from undergrad, but about half of my classmates were older and had some type of work experience before starting law school. Many of the women in my class were parents in their late 20’s – they had married right away after college and were returning to school once their kids were out of diapers. I had one classmate who was a physician (mid-30’s) – and another who was a nurse. So while finances have really changed, I don’t think idea of a gap between college and law school is all that new. </p>

<p>I also felt that I was at a disadvantage when it came to employment in relation to classmates who were a few years older and had more work experience. It also was something of disadvantage in court to be so young when I first started practicing law – it just made it a little harder to be taken seriously by judges and opposing counsel. (I knew how to handle that particular problem --but it was an area where I had to prove myself in ways that might not have been necessary otherwise).</p>

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<p>calmom- Your experience is not typical of the early/mid 70s. Most of the top law schools had classes made up mainly of new college grads. There were a few older students, and my (top 3 at the time) law school had a prominent anti-war journalist in the class who was about 10 years older than any of us. Overwhelmingly my peers at other schools and once I was hired were folks who had gone straight to law school from college. I think the night schools or more local schools were different and did have older students. Tuition wasn’t nearly as high, for one thing. </p>

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<p>I have a young relative who went straight out of undergrad to a no-name law school a thousand miles from home. He successfully found summer internships with a firm back home, graduated, was offered employment at that firm, passed the bar, and is doing well. I do not know his level of debt but he seems to be okay and loves his job. I know this may not be the norm but just thought I’d post a positive story. I think the key for your son is to hustle on networking and internships. Does he have good people skills? </p>

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<p>one word: STUPID.</p>

<p>check out law school transparency for the “opportunity” (% that find jobs) to actually work as a lawyer – requiring a JD – when attending an un-ranked LS. And of course, any such degree will not travel – his limited employment opportunities, such as they are, will ONLY be in the backyard of unranked LS.</p>

<p>Or search for articles by Paul Campos. He even has an online book on amazon – kindle cheap to discourage such foolish people.</p>

<p>DO NOT ATTEND.</p>

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<p>@Momofwildchild – I attended a top ranked public law school. If opting for public over private resulted in a more diverse law school class for me, then I am very glad I enjoyed the benefit of that diversity. Thank you for confirming that I made the right choice! :slight_smile: I didn’t even apply to any other law schools. </p>

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<p>Hmm- a little defensive, maybe? I’m just saying that your experience is not representative of the composition of law school classes in the 70s. Maybe California figured out around that time how screwed up the business climate was going to get and they all went back to school to cash in on eventual Prop 65 and wage and hour!</p>

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<p>I would second the recommendation that your so. Check out <a href=“Top Law Schools - Index page”>http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums&lt;/a&gt;. </p>

<p>Hubbie and I are both attorneys, having graduated law school in the mid to late 70’s. Hubbie went directly from undergrad; I worked a year or so as a pharmacist prior to returning to school for the law degree.
I had both undergrad and grad loans, but paid living expenses, etc with my pharmacy degree. Hubbie was able to pay for both undergrad and law school by working in trailer factories over the summers. </p>

<p>Those were different days with different tuitions and different dollars. </p>

<p>Our older daughter will be entering law school this Fall, two years after finishing undergrad. I wasn’t one to strongly encourage her; Hubbie did. However, she has done A LOT of research about the employment opportunities, potential debt load, and the areas of law that appeal to her. She started out planning to apply only to law schools in her beloved adopted city. But the more she researched the more she learned that was a not a fiscally prudent plan----even when she received full tuition scholarship offers to several. </p>

<p>She also received full 3-year scholarships to both our alma mater and it’s sister school, (one with no conditions). She also received several other tuition scholarships of various value from a variety of schools. These scholarships were all a function of her undergrad GPA and LSAT score. </p>

<p>She reviewed and researched each school. The Top Law School forums was invaluable—providing information about the likelihood of scholarships, among and conditions of scholarships, likelihood of admissions based upon GPA/LSAT, recommendations based on statistics, etc. </p>

<p>But probably the feature most valued by her was the collated objective information the site provided regarding the % employment of recent grads, the States those grads were employed in (very,very few schools’ degrees are ‘have degree, can travel’—even the big dogs have limitations), the type employment (I.e. private sector, big law, small, medium firms, judicial clerk ships, public, non-profit, etc). Also provided information as to how many scholarships (and range of amounts) were offered per class and the retention rate of the scholarships. </p>

<p>DD found that website to be invaluable in helping her decide on which school to attend. </p>

<p>There are several threads and comments from upper class men and recent grads cautioning new students/applicants of the realities of both employment opportunities and the role the loans will play. </p>

<p>If you can get him to take advantage of the information on that site, he’d at least hear it from the horse’s mouth—whether he chooses to heed it or not. </p>

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<p>Sorry for typos in post above. Am typing on a smartphone (that thinks it is smarter than it is) and can’t figure how to go back and edit. </p>

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<p>The recommendation of many of the posters that your son consider working for a couple of years and refining his goals is the conventional wisdom in today’s legal employment climate. My H and I are both lawyers, having graduated into the lean years of 1981. My S graduated from a top 3 school last year and is employed, and my D is finishing her 1L year at a top 6 school. I did my best to discourage either from attending law school but insisted that if that was the path they wanted to follow, to be sure that the school they chose offered strong employment opportunities, even if they did not finish in the top 5% of the class. My experience back in the day at a lower ranked state school was that if you wanted to practice in the region, the degree was extremely valuable. If you wanted to move to a larger market, you needed to be in the top 5-10% of the class…and that was over 30 years ago. I think it’s even worse today. My eldest only decided to apply to law school after working and seeing the value such a degree would add to his credentials for the field in which he hoped to work. My D, seeing her brother’s experience, carefully evaluated which school would best position her for the future she desires. Both decided that if they couldn’t hit certain LSAT benchmarks which, together with their undergraduate GPAs, would put them in contention for top law schools, they would not apply. I don’t think either would have had the necessary perspective right out of college to evaluate what training and skills would benefit them in the future. I say this as the parent of three college graduates, none of whom is (or was) working in a field any way related to their college majors. Law school today is a major investment and to take on substantial debt without any solid expectation of employment after three years is not wise, in my opinion. OP, if your son can discuss why a law degree is valuable to the future he sees for himself and can point to statistics which indicate that graduates of the school to which he intends to matriculate (at all levels of the class…or at least top through median) are employed in jobs paying enough to service that debt post-graduation, then I’d say he’s done his due diligence. He should remember though, that law school is a very different beast than college and those who were successful undergrads are not always at the top of the law school class. An enforced curve can be a very humbling experience and 1L matters…a lot. </p>

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<p>Thanks everyone…still no official word on his plans but I am feeling a bit better that he doing additional research. We have had some direct conversation including some of the points made here…in addition to debt, I have hammered home that a law degree seems to be location-specific and that he must go into this knowing the employment outlook. I have stated that the unranked school, while it may have merits, is not something I can support. His other options are ranked and make more sense regionally for him. At this point, he is also planning to negotiate for some additional merit-type of aid from the others and see where he ends up. I thought parenting him as a toddler was a challenge…:)))))).</p>