My father died on a Sunday, Monday was a holiday, and we put a hold/freeze on the accounts on Tuesday. Nothing (including his SS check which came in on Wed and was returned by the bank) was processed after that Tuesday. As soon as we had the death certificate, about 10 days later, we took those to the bank and they closed the 4 accounts. I have also sent copies of the death certificate to other creditors and life insurance companies. Some creditors have said they can’t talk to me and I said ‘fine’ but at least they closed the accounts.
We are not filing probate because he had no titled property. You CAN do some things on your own like notifying creditors and closing bank accounts with just the death certificate. We went to SSA and they redirected the final check to my mother. You will not be ‘on the hook’ for anything going wrong or being required to pay a debt you are not a co-signer on. You have to get letters of probate in order to sell the house, car, or anything titled. The bank will pay out the account if it is co-owned or pay on death, or they will pay it to the estate (we did learn that every account should be checked for status and changed so it isn’t paid into the estate so we are all doing that now with our bank accounts, 401k’s, IRAs, insurance policies - just pick a beneficiary and hope things come out fair)
My sister and I stopped in to dad’s banks right after his death. No one can/will do anything until my sister is executrix. All (3) must go into his estate account and they can’t until he has one. He still has automatic payments coming out for things like his mortgage that would have been paid off via insurance. A death certificate didn’t change a thing - my sister tried it.
We were able to cancel many other things (TV, supplements he had ordered, etc). One bank currently run by a former classmate of mine has seen to it his SS is all set. We’ve already received payment from the one small insurance policy he had.
At this point my sister is planning to pay the lawyer as soon as she has a bill and the file (either next week or after Thanksgiving - I’m unclear what the next “promise” is). She’ll take the file immediately to the new lawyer who is expecting it (and again, only not doing it himself to save us $$ - he offered). Then I’ll have her dispute the bill assuming I don’t agree with it after I see it itemized in person, but I can’t imagine much being worth $900+.
Otherwise I’m wondering if word of mouth in that small local area is our best bet to warn people. Since she did so poorly in the local election I suspect we’ll hear plenty of similar stories. The whole thing is aggravating to us, but probably ho hum to many others even if it’s not the norm among my circle for how lawyers have done their job in similar circumstances.
A bank has 10 days to clear checks written before the owner dies. An autopay should be the same, and either the bank should reject the check or the autopay merchant should stop them. The bank has been notified and while they can’t pay out the remaining amount in the account until they have the correct documentation, they should not be processing payments 3 months after death. The bank is at risk if your sister disputes the payments when she gets the papers.
My father’s bank had no issue freezing everything. It was complicated because my mother’s name was on 2 of the 4 accounts, so they weren’t supposed to ‘talk’ about them, but they were all intertwined so just froze them all, used the money in the checking account (not co-owned) to pay two of the other accounts (one co-owned) and when we brought in the death certificate they zeroed everything out. About a week later there was $3 or $4 and they just refunded it to my mother’s account. If there would have been large amounts left in the non-co-owned accounts, that money would have escheated to the state or an executor could have claimed it. While we were at the bank the first day, the banker gave me a printout of his bank payments and I could figure out the autopays from that. I called as many as I could to inform them that the account was frozen and to stop taking draws.
For moderate estate, you nearly need to be an attorney, to understand and analyze. I was fortunate to be able to self declare as administratrix (as oldest child) and use the Affadavit of Small Estate (in a state with a higher asset bar. And she had no real estate. Nor spouse.)
We did not close my mother’s bank account. I may have been on it, forget. We used it to pay last bills. Her SS check did come in and was later reversed, as she died mid-month.
You aren’t required to pay a debt of his, but the estate is (or can be, depending on what.)
You might be able to sell the house without probating the will and having the heirs sign the deed along with an affidavit. It depends on which part of NY you are in as to what the title companies will allow. Your new lawyer should be able to give you more info on this. If the Will needs to be probated to sell, ask your new lawyer how long it will be for the court to issue letters testamentary once all the paperwork is filed. Some courts are very far behind and this could take months. There is a procedure for preliminary letters which would allow your sister to sell before the Will is probated, but in some counties this doesn’t speed things along all that much.
You will definitely need to probate the Will for his bank accounts since they were in his name and he didn’t have a beneficiary designation on file. So my comments about the house is separate from comments about bank accounts. That’s because in NY real estate vests on death in the heirs in the absence of a will that provides to the contrary. There’s no such provision for other types of assets.
Ok, then I can’t take sis by the banks again to have them freeze accounts in NY…frustrating.
The will leaves me one of his houses and his grandson another. (Neither are worth much due to location and condition.) I want to sell the one he lived in so his debts can be paid - hopefully ending his estate in the black so his grandson (my nephew) can keep the other rather than have to see that sold to pay off the debts.
My sister inherits his coin collection. The two of us split everything else (which isn’t much TBH). Sis is going to sell “the rest” for what she can get and that will also be applied to his debts and taxes. If we’re in luck, the lawyer fees will be paid from any leftover and she can also keep her coin collection or at least keep the $$ from it. I’m expecting nothing from dad’s estate and I’m ok with that. We have all of this worked out. We just need to be able to proceed, the sooner the better to lessen expenses. (sigh)
My sister never signed any contract with this lawyer. She says it. My uncle confirms it. There was the one meeting and intent was definitely there. We all did our part signing whatever she said. She did nothing with the papers or check - just empty promises. The lawyer doesn’t work on Fridays, so Monday is the soonest sis can (probably not) get the file again. She told me she’s been to the office asking for it every day this week (M-Th). Today she was told by the secretary that the lawyer had to take it home to go through it. Why? She was given an amount to pay already. Let us get the itemized bill, pay it, and be done - with the dispute coming afterward.
There’s really a ton I just don’t understand. Tomorrow sis is going to call the new lawyer and ask his thoughts, esp if she can’t pick up the file to take to him on Monday if it’s not available again.
The new lawyer has said it should take 2-3 weeks once he gets the paperwork. The original lawyer had said it would be done by the end of the week Sept 19th when I left her the Surrogate’s Court check. She said it would take 7 minutes for her to complete. She’s at the courthouse several days per week due to her job. We’ve given her plenty of reminders - at least one per week.
I seriously can’t see where there should be any major problems once we get past this checkpoint. I’m still baffled as to why this is such a major problem. I’ll admit the word incompetence is the most frequent thought surfacing.
My impression, based on nearly 30 years as a lawyer, is that the majority of lawyers have a really hard time admitting they’ve screwed up. So, often they make not-great situations into bad situations by refusing to cop to the mistake.
That is not what t @melvin123 said. The bank won’t pay out the rest of the account with letters from the court. That doesn’t mean they can’t freeze the account, which is what should have happened when you notified them of the death. You may want the bank to continue to pay the mortgages and taxes and other autopay items, but if I were the bank’s attorney I’d make them freeze the accounts once the notice of death was received.
My parents hired an incompetent lawyer to redo their will and trust. I paid him $2500 just to get him away. He messed with a large Miami company and lost his license. There was no,point in reporting him to the state. But within a short time, I had to deal with my fathers attorneys. In the months between my mothers death, and my fathers, I had changed his bank account, security box at bank, and moved every asset but Vanguard into his Fidelity account. When my mom died, I need 23^ death certicarifates plus all those 5 page silver or gold medallions to change accounts. Within months, everything my dad had was in vanguard or fidelity. I was on his bank accounts and his title to car and condo. I only needed 3 death certificates for dads estate.
I lost 5500 to all these lawyers for my mom’s estate, who did nothing. I paid $0 to handle my dad’s estate within the year. I didn’t charge other beneficiaries anything for my time and effort.
Nonetheless, I just redid my will and trust with one of my best friends. I don’t care if my son lets her handle everything at the reasonable rate. She has integrity and there is love between us. She deserves to be paid for time in helping to sell my house and settle the estate, every time I have ever referred to her person has walked away praising her. There are some fabulous lawyers.
Can you complain to that lawyer’s boss?
My advice is to let the new lawyer handle getting the file from the old lawyer. It doesn’t sound like your sister can manage these details and is getting pushed around by the old lawyer. It will cost you a few extra dollars, but the new lawyer can call or write the old lawyer and won’t get a lot of BS in return. While lengthy, this probate should be a very simple process.
Remember, your Dad picked this lawyer. They may have clicked. You and sis, not so much. The lawyer who did my mother’s will was a real wack job. When he handled the probate, he tended to let things drag on and on. Couldn’t understand some of the outstanding family issues. Finally, we just had to stand up and say “Jim, this is the way we are doing it. Get on board. Get this closed.” Good luck.
When I said that you might be able to sell the houses without probating the will, I made the assumption that the will left the houses to the kids equally (and that your dad died single). Well, you know the old saying about assumptions. Anyway, since my assumption was wrong, my comment won’t work. In all events it’s good that your sister retained another lawyer who can go over with her the specific facts of your dad’s estate and advise her accordingly. I’m glad your dad was a resident of a county that handles probate matters quickly so you can get going with this quickly now that your sister has a more reliable attorney.
@sunnyschool The lawyer runs her own practice - office of one. Her H helps her do nuts and bolts (not lawyering) and a secretary.
@yourmomma Dad picked this lawyer because she would work with him. He had mental issues beyond being a Hoarder and no other attorney in the county wanted to deal with him. Essentially he wanted to sue everyone for super minor things and would rant on with the same stories endlessly. My guess is she needed a client enough to put up with him. You’re right that my sister can’t handle these details. I knew she’d need assistance when I told dad to make her executrix, but I expected the lawyer would be one who would help. I don’t know that I’d want to change it in hindsight though. She knows far more about dad’s affairs and is willing to go through his stuff (I’d have a dumpster there).
@melvin123 I really appreciate your advice.
I checked with my sister again last night and she assures me no bank will freeze his accounts just with the death certificate. She’s tried - even via friends - not just nameless employees. It’s a rural area. She knows several people. At least we were able to stop the auto reorder supplements (hundreds of $$ each month) from the companies. The mortgage should have been paid off with his death though. Any idea if we’ll get refunded for the past three months of payments or are we out those?
Did your sister retain the new attorney? I find it odd the seeming net-net was, come back when you have the original will. A piece seems to be missing.
This first-lawyer mess can be where the state Bar helps. I wouldn’t count on “word of mouth” being enough.
I don’t think the mortgage can be paid off until everything else lines up. Earlier, you said you hoped insurance should have paid it, but that can’t trigger without the authority. (In my area, you have to be confirmed as executrix, not just named. In my case, this was a simple pro forma acceptance, separate from other steps.) Even getting the insurance $ takes steps.
If his bank continues to autopay the mortgage, doesn’t that leave the insurance amount untouched- in effect, a refund? In any case, the insurance company doesn’t just get a death notice and pay. You follow steps and then that $ goes to the estate. Later, the estate distributes balances.
Or are you talking about a different sort of insurance? Mortgage payoff vs life insurance?
The expenses (monies owed) of the deceased and federal/state taxes trump the distribution of assets to heirs. That’s part of why settling can take time. The “estate” becomes a legal entity, charged with both doing this and per laws.
Let us know when you learn more specifics.
In ways, you’re lucky this is primarily just you and your sister working this out, not something larger. There will be bullets you can easily agree on. First task is to understand requirements.
It is mortgage payoff insurance I’m talking about. The bank holding the mortgage told sis he has it, but they can’t do anything about it until my sister has the executrix paper she needs. A death certificate is not enough.
We already have the proceeds of a small life insurance policy dad had bought - paying way too much for way too little ($1500 for each of us - he was paying $77/month for this!), but whatever. The life insurance company was easy to deal with. A death certificate was all they needed.
My sister assures me the new attorney told her to come back when she has the original will and he will get started. He could get it himself, but tells her it will take longer and cost us more. She has not signed a contract/retainer with either attorney.
We realize all of dad’s taxes and debts need to be settled from what he has and owns. We also know it’s going to be cutting it close between ending in the black or red. This is why we’re frustrated with the time the first attorney is taking, esp since she keeps saying “it’ll be done this week” and that phrase goes back to mid Sept. Sept 19th is when I wrote her the check and signed my waiver being told it would take 7 minutes at the courthouse (for the lawyer) and sis would have her estate number, etc.
Nov 8th (a week ago), I received the email asking me to sign a waiver (as if I hadn’t before). We were not silently waiting in between those dates. Weekly my sister would check in to see if they had the paperwork for her and was countlessly told “tomorrow,” or “next week.” She was supposed to have had the bill and dad’s file this past Monday. This whole week she was told “not yet.” Yesterday she was told, “next week” because the lawyer had to take the file home to go through it.
My patience is totally exhausted. Two extra months plus losing things is likely nothing in the grand scheme of things to her or the rest of the world. To us, it’s frustrating, esp when I have co-workers who haven’t had anything even remotely similar with the basics when their parents have passed away.
I do understand she’s trying. It’s sometimes about when to pull the trigger and escalate or walk away from this gal. Three strikes and the first attorney is out. But on top of all the details to handle, there’s so much info to learn, then process, even before the to-do steps can be taken.
Sorry you’re dealing with this.
@ creekland the bank should freeze the accounts in case of death. I worked as a teller in college and that was common practice.
The insurance pays the named beneficiary. If it is the estate, it’s the estate. If not, it goes to the named beneficiary. And they DO just get a death certificate and pay. Mortgage insurance is usually set up to pay the mortgage holder so the money probably won’t go through the estate.
I’d like to put in a word for Mutual of Omaha. They have a commercial where they say they pay ‘most’ claims within 24 hours. It wasn’t 24 hours, but my mother got a check within a week, before we even had the death certificates. I called, gave the rep the name of the funeral director, and they got the info they needed from him (he also notified SSA -rather a helpful guy). They sent a letter telling us to send the death certificate and then they sent another check, all within a month.
Another insurance company paid about a week after I sent the death certificate (plus $.86 interest from date of death). A third company has gone radio silent. They’ll get a follow up soon but that was the only one that required an original death certificate and a snail mail filing. The others I did by email or on the phone. I think that was Met Life (thumbs down to them)
Mortgage insurance will pay from date of death. The mortgage servicer (bank) will refund any double payments.
Does the $900 attorney fee include the fee for drawing up the will, or do you know if that was paid at that time? I had a miserable spring and part of the summer dealing with attorney’s while trying to sell my mom’s house. I ended up petitioning the Probate Judge to get involved, (which her office did as a mediator), and sent a copy of the grievance I was set to file with the state bar to the Judge and both attorneys. The attorney in question went ballistic and finally stepped up and got the job done. It was horrible.