Lawyers desperate to work for no salary

Graduate School Law School
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<p>The word on street is that even a highly regarded government lawyer program like D.O.J (in addition to some DA office or prosecutor office) might consider hiring many lawyers for free in states such as NJ or PA, in near future. This is on top of mass hiring freeze in government agencies, where they’re cutting lawyer jobs left and right. The oversupply of lawyers is so vast right now that these legal employers aren’t willing to pay a dime for your work. Yet, droves of lawyers apply for these positions because they need to get the ‘experience’ as a lawyer.</p>

<p>Job market in legal industry is so bad that there isn’t any shortage of lawyers competing to work for free. After undergrad + 3 years of law school + loans, this really is the kiss of death. To those considering a career in law, be warned. And, try to stay the hell away from law schools ranked outside T-14, or at the least, T-30 or so. This profession is highly obsessed with the pedigree of your degree. Outside of BigLaw, the pay is awful for most lawyer jobs and you will be lucky to get even those jobs paying 40k/ year, if you go to a low-ranked law school. Or, perhaps you will learn the hard way later after being unemployed with crap tons of debt. </p>

<p>I post this thread because several friends of mine from high school are going to low-ranked law schools after taking out big loans, and they try to convince themselves that they will be fine. When I told them that their idea is a terrible career move, they threw me $hit and were angry saying ridiculous stuff like “not everyone can get into Harvard Law, or not everyone wants to go to Harvard Law”, or “I know many lawyers making bank who didn’t go to top law schools”.</p>

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<p>I wonder if this extreme of to many lawyers will create a shortage of lawyers 10 years from now (potential law students, like myself, reading posts, like this discouraging them from law school) until the market finally balances out at equilibrium?</p>

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<p>No, for several reasons.</p>

<p>1) There are way too many law schools in this country. At least half of them (probably more) need to close ASAP in order to correct for the oversupply of lawyers in long-term. What is disturbing is that new law schools are actually being established each year, not closing down. Guess why? It is because law schools are big money-makers to universities, and highly profitable business. Law schools don’t cost much money at all to run: it just takes a professor to lecture in front of like 200 students. No labs or expensive stuff involved like when schools educate doctors or dentists. Yet, law schools charge 50-60k a year in tuition. They end up with huge profits and try to fund that money from law school to other parts of university.</p>

<p>2) The general public as well as many future law students aren’t that well exposed to the extent of scarcity of job opportunities if one gets a JD from a non-T14 law school. When law schools advertise on their career statistics that ‘90% of our grads employed within 6 months of graduation, and median starting salary = 100k’, it doesn’t really help.</p>

<p>3) The demand for lawyers isn’t growing at all, it is actually shrinking rapidly. Even at large BigLaw firms, many of junior associate positions have been cut down over last few years. For example, in Chicago, the total number of BigLaw slots that are given to law students in 2010 decreased to about 300 slots, down from about 1000 slots in 2006. Also factor in the clients of big law firms who are increasingly refusing to pay for astronomical costs of work done by junior associates at BigLaw (many of times doing doc-review type of work that can be outsourced to India for much cheaper), the new trend may well be that junior associates may not bring in large profits to law firms as they used to before. Hence, the demand for junior associates at large firms is likely to decrease over time. Note: this means that even students at T14 and T10 law schools will find it increasingly more difficult to find jobs.</p>

<p>At state government agencies that used to hire decent number of lawyers, they are actually laying off lawyers with years of experience and cutting lawyer jobs left and right due to budget crisis. Imagine getting a paid job with legit benefits like health insurance, etc, with a legit government agency. You can bet that those jobs are insanely competitive to get. </p>

<p>4) Some people out there never cared about attending a high ranked school. Many of my friends just went to a local state university because they liked it, and want to do the same for law school. However, law as a career is a very pedigree-obsessed field, and these kids have no clue what they’re putting themselves into.</p>

<p>5) The vast majority of law students or future law students aren’t good enough to get into a T10 law school. But, if you can’t crack 170 on LSAT, learn to deal with it and look at other career possibilities. Going to a horse$hit law school with a 155 on LSAT, paying sticker, isn’t the answer to your problem. Many times, people fail to realize this. Unfortunately, many of my friends from my high school fall into this category. Note: no law school, even ones ranked outside of T50, has run out of business due to lack of students or lack of tuition money. Essentially, no law school has much problem filling most of their seats. (even Cooley) This trend will not stop just because some articles warn people about law schools. </p>

<p>6) Mass media. Shows like Boston Legal, Legally Blonde, and Suits inspire thousands of wanna-be lawyers when these shows don’t really reflect what a lawyer actually does.</p>

<p>7) Even before the recession, there has always been oversupply of lawyers in this country. This just got much worse in recent years because many horse$hit law schools opened in last decade.</p>

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<p>The harsh reality: listen to LazyKid. The lawyers-working-for-free is true all across the country, at least from CT to CO, because I know that the USA offices in both of those states are “hiring” attorneys to work for free-and really free-no benefits, no nothing, with the warning that if an AUSA job becomes open, you don’t go to the head of the line.
To Newton13, since nobody thinks it will happen to them, people who want to go to law school ignore these warnings. Not only are there too many law schools, but tons of people are still applying, taking on huge debt, and then wondering what to do upon graduation. Until applicants wise-up-and they haven’t yet, just look at the stats for applicants-a lot of folks are going to owe a lot of money and not be able to get a job.
How bad is it-well, look at any major city’s (blank, b/c it’s copyrighted)list.org, and go to law jobs. See those $20-40/hour jobs advertised? For licensed attorneys only? Well, those jobs get filled-and have more then enough applicants.</p>

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<p><a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/10/us/politics/for-profit-college-rules-scaled-back-after-lobbying.html[/url]”>http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/10/us/politics/for-profit-college-rules-scaled-back-after-lobbying.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>If Kaplan and Phoenix can get away with it, the law schools are virtually untouchable. Supply and demand, not moral and reality, will determine how many more law schools open for business.</p>

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<p>Uhm, then why do you think there isn’t oversupply of doctors or dentists? It is because American Med Association carefully restricts supply of doctors and supply of medical school that is accredited is limited. </p>

<p>American Bar Association is more worried about making more money for themselves by opening more law schools. Yes - many of board members from ABA come from law school faculty. It is in their interest to open more law schools and charge 50k a year tuition from students.</p>

<p>This is a moral hazard issue, at best.</p>

<p>It is disturbing that many lawyers in this market are worse off than janitors or plumbers. Hey, at least most janitors actually get PAID for their work. Can’t say the same for many lawyers out there.</p>

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This.
However, I do know of many service members that are in the National Guard and go to a state law program on a part-time basis.
They are getting a great deal: state tuition waiver (free), pocketing $25+k/year off of the Post 9/11 GI Bill while going to law school, and for those who are going to the part-time program, they are still involved in their primary careers and generating income. They don’t seem nearly as worried or freaked out as their peers.
Freedom from debt also gives them a platitude of choices post-graduation. Freedom from $150+k debt allows them the opportunity to pursue fulfilling and yet not so lucrative career paths that would have bound their peers.</p>

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<p>Well, the vast majority of people attending law school don’t attend with anything near full scholarship. Over 70-80% of all law students finance their legal education after taking out loans. Go figure.</p>

<p>Also, attending a low ranked law school even with a full ride may not be worth the opportunity cost of three years.</p>