Lazy Junior - what to do?

Parents Forum
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<p>Bob – S is coasting along and would prefer to spend 30 hours a week watching TV and playing video games to studying. He’s extremely bright, musically gifted and has fairly strong ECs – strong standardized test scores. But he’ll blow off homework or forget to turn it in and has never been seen to actually study anything. His grades in AP/Honors courses are ok but not great. He finally had a good term at the end of last year. But thus far, he shows no signs of repeating that this term.</p>

<p>I know that nagging won’t work – tried that – but H and I decided that if he didn’t care enough to study - which would lead to merit money at many, many schools, then we’re not willing to expend extensive time and money visiting schools and paying a full ride at a private school. I told him that I couldn’t make him study but I could make sure he had time to do so – video games are gone during the week and mid-term grades will determine whether the TV can be turned on during the week. If he refuses to study, he can attend a good state school and then transfer if he eventually decides to put forth an effort. We’ve told him this and he seems to get it. Will see what happens at the end of the term with regard to his grades. </p>

<p>It makes me sad that he may not “apply himself” and thus limit his options but I also know I can’t do the work for him or force him to do it. Good luck.</p>

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<p>Maybe if you as a family met with a college counselor or guidance counselor, that would help focus your daughter. Sometimes when the advice comes from a third party, it has more impact. Junior year is really the time for kids to buckle down and do their best.</p>

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<p>“Sometimes when the advice comes from a third party, it has more impact.”</p>

<p>I have found this to be true. This summer I posted about one of my Ds (a current Jr.) who wasn’t into even thinking about anything college related. Some, wisely advised me not to worry and that when school started up she would catch the enthusiasm from classmates. </p>

<p>That’s what happened and may happen as the year progresses for your D as well.</p>

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<p>I randomly wandered into this thread, and I’m a junior, so maybe I can give my own perspective. </p>

<p>Firstly, the OP’s daughter might be studying, just not conspicuously. I personally do most of my studying in my school, random places, and can time-manage well enough most of the time to not have to do much on weeknights after ECs…maybe it’s the same with your daughter? </p>

<p>Also, how are you reacting to your daughter? Are you constantly saying, “630 is not good enough!” “4 AP Classes? A B?! You’re never going to get into ___!” That really will not work! Also, you should check out your daughter’s school environment. While a 630 at a magnet school might be “eh”/“bad”/whatever, a 630 at a local public can seem great, even magnificent, and she doesn’t feel the need to work any harder. For example, my private school (with paid guidance counselors!) says that “Nobody gets over 700 on SAT IIs. Nobody takes more than 5 APs. Nobody gets this, nobody does that.” </p>

<p>And, to the parents who say, “Just buy a digital camera”, I can say, that for me, it would just make me work to that goal and stop. Actually, it would make me less motivated overall. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that if they stop studying, parents will buy stuff, THEN you study, instead of just doing it all on your own. </p>

<p>Finally, lazy?! I don’t really understand how taking 4 APs and mostly getting A’s is bad. If your daughter feels like you don’t even appreciate her doing all that work, why would she take on more? Also, if she is so naturally talented that she doesn’t have to do anything to get an A, why do more? Obviously she understands the material.</p>

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<p>OP, If your D doesn’t get into the highest school she thinks she wants because of a ‘bad’ Jr year, she can always work to transfer later. Why does everyone think Jr year will set the course for the rest of their lives? We all have our own timetables and temperments. She sounds like a dang good student to me. Appreciating her for what she is will work a whole lot better in the long run.</p>

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<p>That sounds like the story of my life; I didn’t get it together until the end of senior year, which unfortunately was too late, college-wise. I’m trying to transfer to some elite colleges though -I guess some people just take longer to realize.</p>

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<p>Oh gosh. This is the hard part. We can all say don’t push so hard that you damage your relationship with her. But, I think many of us would also say that our responsibility as parents is to provide a framework of expectations for kids and the social context for them that they don’t yet understand.</p>

<p>So where in the middle ground should you stake your flag?</p>

<p>My vote is for setting the expectations for effort as high as possible while, this is really important, still making sure your child believes that you love them as they are. Making sure your child can understand that while you will be following up to see if homework has been completed, that while you will be asking them if they have finished browing the hip-hop forums and are now doing their calculus <em>ahem says the mother who asks this question</em>, you will still truly love them unconditionally if they make different choices than what you recommend.</p>

<p>And that you let them know that this behaviour has high probability of causing them to wind up at some college that is less selective than you know they could attend if they would only focus, BUT, that if they wind up at that less selective college you still believe in them and love them.</p>

<p>And also, finally, that you are sensitive to the nag factor. All of the above is for naught if you just talk about it all too much:).</p>

<p>But that’s just me.</p>

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<p>The beautiful thing about the United States is that if you don’t get your act together in hs, you haven’t closed any doors. You can transfer colleges, you can apply to grad school (and it doesn’t necessarily follow that going to a more selective college will get you into a more selective law school), you can take time off and work before going back to school. I know a guy who ran away during the spring of sr year but managed to graduate by the skin of his teeth. He then went to UCSC (at that time the least selective of the UC’s) but dropped out after 6 weeks. He spent 2 years traveling, working on a farm, playing guitar, whatever. Went back to SF State where he got straight A’s, then transferred to Berkeley. He’s now a PhD student in one of the top programs in his field in the country, and is shopping for post-doc’s in Europe… So whenever you light your own fire, all is good. Doesn’t have to be jr. year in hs.</p>

<p>I remember when I was in 3rd grade and was having trouble with long division, the teacher labeled me as “lazy.” That word was so hurtful - I still remember the pain. It intensified my misery and killed any motivation I might have had to do better. It’s so hard not to nag - I do it to my own kids and drive them crazy - but if you’re going to nag, stay on the issue of behavior and stay away from the issue of character. But from everything I’ve read, the best way to modify behavior is to praise the good and ignore the bad. When she does something right, compliment her!</p>

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<p>You won’t believe me, but I think that minimizing study is an excellent talent for a bright girl. </p>

<p>Millions of bright boys cruise through high school doing the absolute minimum. Call it an exercise in ‘efficiency’. They get to college, where they determine their priorities and ambitions. Then they get into the workplace and take charge. IMO opinion, there is a relationship between their ability to take charge in the workplace and the efficiencies developed earlier in life.</p>

<p>OTOH, we teach girls to obsess over their work, to make it perfect. That’s fine and dandy for school success, but in a challenging workplace, there is no place for batting 1000 --or trying to bat 1000. The workplace rewards big hitters–with averages of 375 or, mercy me, 400.</p>

<p>Recently, I had a conversation with a female surgeon. She noted that she and her fellow female surgeons take TWICE as long to complete surgeries. They obsess about the perfection of each one–even though they know that perfection is not possible. They cling to the habits of high school. Meanwhile, the men sail in and out and operate with far more daring and bravado. In general, the men don’t carry the emotion home with them because they don’t obsess over perfection.</p>

<p>I was a rotten primary and secondary school student–positively bored out of my mind. I remember very little homework. Yet, when i turned on my focus in archtiecture school, I was able to achieve at very high levels–and continue to do so. This is in stark contrast to trends for my profession. Only 13% of female architects even bother to get registered, nevermind owning practices designing skyscrapers. My ‘male’ attitudes toward perfection are part of what propels me.</p>

<p>Let her develop her own methods for success. Efficiency and a cruisy attitude can be wonderful attributes.</p>

1 Like
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<p>My son is very similar. I think it’s interesting that many of today’s high school kids tend to “de-stress” with electronics rather than by reading books. Son’s English teacher said that at the standardized testing session last year, he watched to see what the students who finished early did with their time. He said most of them put on their ipods. No reading, no sleeping.</p>

<p>It’s interesting that Bob is concerned with “do I push” or “do I not push” and the responses have been divided. Here’s how we handled it. We had a talk with DS at the beginning of junior year and told him that this is the year that counts. It’s only one year. We talked about how we hadn’t pushed him to that point, but that we felt this was the year he needed to really try his hardest. I think the fact that we reiterated that it was just one year helped a lot. And, we hadn’t pushed before that. This year it has been hard to follow through and NOT push. I have tried to let him decide on his courses and effort and he has made several bad choices, IMO. For example, no college essay work this summer, no study for SAT, bad choice of fine arts elective (he chose it because he thought it would be easy rather than something he likes), didn’t do all the summer reading for one of his AP courses. I think it will all work out, though. He did pretty well junior year and he grew up a bit last year with regard to interest in colleges (being exposed to seniors going through it helped a lot as did spring college visits). He did sign up for a reasonably challenging workload this year and he does seem to be at least interested in the college selection process. He just doesn’t have the drive towards academics that it takes to get into the very top tier. His good grades and AP courses will get him into one of the top 50, though, and one of the top 25 if he decides that is what he wants. I don’t think that will limit him at all in his future.</p>

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<p>Cheers, I think you’re absolutely right about being efficient. No one can work every waking hour of the day and still maintain enthusiasm and creativity. Down-time is essential. I prefer it when my kids use their down time to be physically active or creative in some way, but being social (which these days means being on Facebook) is important too. My daughter was a lot like the OP’s daughter - she did what she had to do in school but usually not a whole lot more. She is now at a notoriously high-stress college, and a friend of ours who’s an alum said that in a few weeks she will be overwhelmed with work and will need to practice “selective neglect.” I have no worries, as she did that quite a bit in hs with good results.</p>

<p>I wouldn’t necessarily blame getting an 83 on a test on not studying long enough for it. In APUSH, my guess is that a lot of the test has to do with analysis and interpretation more than facts. She may have been marked down for reasons that had nothing to do with studying, such as misinterpreting a question. When my kids get grades on tests or essays that they’re not happy with I encourage them to discuss it with the teacher. Much of doing well in a class is learning what the teacher’s expectations are and delivering on those. It’s especially important when the kid is in a class of 30, because they get so little feedback from the overworked teachers.</p>

<p>As for the SATII in math, both my kids also took pre-calc as sophmores. While the teacher encouraged the jrs in the class to take the SATII at the end of the class, he did not encourage the sophs to do so. It’s a timed test, and the younger kids often don’t work as fast as the older ones, even though they know the material just as well or better. She should take the math SATII again at the end of jr year - she will probably get a much better score. It shouldn’t be necessary for her to do more preparation than she did - take a couple of the practice tests, just to get used to the style of the test. If her math teachers have been doing their jobs she will know the material. </p>

<p>My best advice is to relax and enjoy the time you have left with her. I miss my daughter something fierce!</p>

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<p>Bob, your OP reminded me of our son in high school. He did all his homework assignments but spent little time studying for tests and almost nada for the SAT’s. But here were the upside results for him.</p>

<p>First, while he ended up with a good SAT score(1400+) and a good academic record(about top 6%) he knew that this would not make him a competetive candidate for highly selective colleges and therefore did not get engaged in that high anxiety process.</p>

<p>Second, he set his sights a bit lower applying to the likes of Case, RPI, Oberlin and our state flagship university. Not only was he admitted to every college he applied to but he was offered great merit aid packages to most, Oberlin being the lone exception.</p>

<p>Finally because he earned admissions based on less effort than most of his classmates(he calls it based on his native abilities) he is thriving academically in the college environment. Because he did not burn himself out in hs, he is not studying hard now and really enjoying college life.</p>

<p>He is now looking forward to graduating this spring and starting on the next phase of his life as a working man.</p>

<p>The only cautionary note is that your student recognize that she will have to work much harder in college to achieve the academic success she is capable of.</p>

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<p>Cheers, I always enjoy your posts. I agree completely that learning to prioritize is an important life skill. Not everything is worth doing well, some things only need to be done adequately. </p>

<p>PS What’s with thatonly 13% of women architectural graduates getting registered? I may not be designing skyscrapers, but I really enjoy running my own firm…</p>

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<p>That’s the AIA statistic–nd it holds true in other countries. Only 13% of female architects bother getting registered nevermind run their own firms. If you are registered and running your own firm, you are one of very very few.</p>

<p>MAS * Mutual Admiration Society disclaimer. ;)</p>

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<p>About the APUSH,
When my son took it, the amount of studying didn’t really seem to matter. He got a B on every stinking test he took, whether he studied 6 hours or none. The questions were multiple choice, and some were kind of tricky- there was more than one correct answer, but one was the “best” correct answer. That type of ambiquity kills my son (he’s a math/scientist type all the way). Just wondering if this is the case with your daughter- if it is, it is certainly just wheel spinning to kill yourself over every test. BTW- son ended up with a 4 on the AP exam- yep…B student in history.</p>

<p>Also, how many tests has your daughter had? It could be that she just hasn’t figured out how much she needs to study, or what to study. I wouldn’t be concerned about one test- maybe after you see a definite trend. But here again, “B” does not stand for “bad” so I’m not even sure if I’d make an issue over it (I didn’t).</p>

<p>Cheers has a good point about efficiency in high school. My son has a good friend who was a superb high school student. Constantly on top of everything, studied for hours for every test, made straight A’s. Now that he’s in college, things are different. I believe he was such an overachiever and over-the-top studier, that it sort of masked his potential. When things got tougher, instead of having a “reserve” to tap into- being able to “up” the time spent studying- he was already tapped out. He can’t do any better. You take an B student who is used to having to pull the rabbit out of hats- get decent grades while doing a million other things and studying very little- he’s liable to end up doing better in college than the A student who studied 6 hours a night. That is, assuming he taps into that unused reserve tank.</p>

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<p>“He did not believe in studying for standardized tests, even subject tests, and got a similar score in Math 2C.”</p>

<p>Before coming to CC neither did I; in fact, that’s how I found this place. Googling whether or not kids should prepare for the SAT. By that time DD had already registered for SAT I and II, and we had no concerns about “preparing” for the subject tests. Hardly any of her classmates even heard of them. Not sure her GC ever mentioned them. I haven’t read all the posts, but surely you guys know there is a world of kids who would think the OP’s daughter was a superstar. My husband say’s it’s not relevent, but kids I work with everday would be going above and beyond just attending school, let alone doing homework. I try to remind myself of this as I watch my DD fritter away time on the internet…just like I’m doing right now…</p>

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<p>My D was the same, but without the internet obsession. She fought us on SAT prep classes and took the test only once, with OK results (she refused to take it again). It carried over into senior year, where she frustrated the heck out of us by waiting until the very last moment to turn in apps and materials to the various colleges (guess who was standing in line at the post office on those days?) We decided to set a once a week schedule for reviewing college materials with her-15 minutes max, which took the pressure off but she still procrastinated. To my point, I think some of the resistance could be due to her own subconscious fears of having to leave home and go away to college, as well as a fear of college itself. If you offer support and encouragement, then she may feel more like applying herself to this huge task. I wouldn’t go with the incentives (bribes) as it feels like manipulation. My D got into a top 25 University and is getting better grades than she did in HS even without us around to push :slight_smile: RELAX</p>

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<p>I find this is more about time management skills than laziness. My younger daughter would rather socialize, either on the computer, at the Y or the ski hill, or at the movies, than study. No surprises here. We’ve found that talking through her homework on Fridays and budgeting some time at home without distractions works for her. And living by “work first, play later” is good too, but play must be part of her childhood. She’s 15, for gosh sakes.</p>

<p>I’m hoping she’ll remember how to prioritize when she leaves home…</p>

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<p>Everyone has a period of underperformance in his/her life. EVERYONE. So it’s better to have it happen in high school than some time later.</p>

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<p>bob26, your “lazy” junior daughter may be smarter than you think. Perhaps she already knows that she could be the next Mother Theresa, the next Marie Curie, AND the next Maya Angelou and STILL get rejected from Harvard, Duke, Stanford, Caltech, MIT, etc. and even some “lesser” schools with the Tufts Syndrome. Why should she knock herself out for such an uncertain reward when she can sit back, relax, and still do nearly as well in college admissions?</p>

<p>Also, keep in mind that many of your fellow parents would kill to have a son or daughter as “lazy” as yours. Your daughter may be the first “lazy” student in the history of the world to take AP US History (which had a torrential workload that forced me to switch to the regular class back in the fall of 1990), AP Calculus (which I didn’t take until senior year despite the fact that I was a math whiz on the most advanced math track available), AP Chemistry, and AP English.</p>