People frequently miss or forget this. When arguing with my uncle about why one of my kids chose Middlebury over Michigan, he made some crap comment about liberal arts colleges. I told him, “I don’t think the ‘liberal arts’ in ‘liberal arts college’ means what I think you think it means.” As I’ve written before, you can confuse about 25% of the population who has heard the term “liberal arts college” by adding the words “physics” or “math” or “chemical”. There are people who really think these places are for kids who want to get high and read books and throw pots all day.
Same thing with fashion. Big business and attracts people obviously interested in fashion, probably from a young age. A young woman one my kids went to high school with, went to SCAD, and is now living the dream in Brooklyn working for a major clothing brand. Another friend of his quit college to go to culinary school, is now working in a restaurant in Brooklyn. They are pursuing their interests. If they don’t have a liberal arts degree, or engineering degree, or law degree, so what. I don’t see any reason to worry about these kinds of kids that are doing what they want to be doing. Now, if I could only think of someone I know of that majored in marketing.
I haven’t seen anybody here disparage liberal arts colleges or liberal arts. My older son actually came pretty close to majoring in physics as an undergraduate.
Btw, fashion design with a reputable college, with rigor, isn’t fashion merchandising. And schools offering barely better than a certificate are limited tickets.
Thank you, lookingforward. I am well aware that fashion design is not the same as fashion merchandising. And fashion merchandising also will have different levels of rigor, depending on where your education is from (whether on the job, a certificate program, or a 4 year degree to include general education requirements).
@blossom There are usually exceptions to any rule but I stand by the principle that supply and demand has a strong correlation with wages. Give me an example that is counterintuitive.
You described constraints which are part of the economy and part of the discussion. High entry cost, high education, high athletic talent, Some constraints are natural such as athletic talent required to play at a pro level. Others may be artificial where there are a limited number of slots each year at the nation’s grad schools. Both of these are on the supply side. The demand side is equally important but harder to manipulate.
I doubt many new grads are counting on supply and demand from Econ 101. Too many never even gave thought to what they were going to do with their degree. Back on track, I think psychology is a great degree if you plan to to a PhD or PsyD. The problem is millions major in psychology without enough research to know they need any grad degree or not realizing that they need to be competitive to get those slots (GPA, undergraduate research, etc.)
I’ve long been of the opinion that the least valuable major is one that ends with the student not completing a degree. By that measure, computer science may be the least valuable, at least for the 31% of computer science majors who never complete their degrees, according to NCES. Another 28% of beginning computer science majors switch to another major before they graduate. That leaves 41% of beginning computer science majors who actually complete a degree in computer science. The major may work like a charm for that 41% minority, but you also need to keep the attrition rate in view to get a balanced view of the value of the major.
There could be many reasons for such a high attrition rate (59%). It’s a fashionable major, and it can be a lucrative one to the successful graduate. For those reasons, and with many students under heavy parental pressure these days to pick a “practical” and “well-paying” major, it might attract a lot of students who just don’t have the math proficiency or the raw intellectual talent or the stick-to-it-iveness to complete the program. Then, too, as someone pointed out upthread, the actual work can be drudgery, and many 18-year-olds may not realize that because they expect to be be living in a fast-paced, glitzy, and glamorous world of computer games. This is confounded a bit by the fact that this is a field where some people develop such extraordinary skills that they don’t actually need to complete a degree to leap into a successful professional practice. But my guess is that most of the 31% of computer science majors who drop out of college entirely aren’t in that category; they’re burnouts who probably should have studied something else from the beginning. Great major for the right person, but it’s obviously not for everyone, and apparently not the right major even for most of those who start out down that path at the outset of their college career.
Looking at the earnings of those who successfully complete a major can be very misleading. In no field is the successful completion rate 100%, and there’s actually considerable variation in attrition rates by major, with computer science topping the list of majors with the highest percentage of students dropping out of college entirely.
In one of my many incarnations, I did study some fashion design, let’s leave it at that. My comment was simply from some seeming to use fashion design and fashion merchandising as the same pursuits. And that not all programs are created equal. So be it.
I know a couple CS dropouts. They dropped out of college because they were already highly employable and making significant $ without finishing their degree.
This has the differences in the Marist program (which I found by googling- I have no first hand knowledge of the program)… Both fashion design and fashion merchandising require 120 credits and fulfill different needs within the fashion industry. http://www.marist.edu/commarts/fashion/program-info.html If someone wants to study fashion merchandising, wants a college degree and enjoys fashion, it could be a good fit. It may not be for some of you or your kids, but it could be for someone else’s . More power to them.
@Inicole , why are gender or women’s studies least valuable? While not my chosen area of study, I think the role of gender and all that is implicated is fascinating and is surely relevant.
“The problem is millions major in psychology without enough research to know they need any grad degree or not realizing that they need to be competitive to get those slots (GPA, undergraduate research, etc.)”
The problem is, that’s not a problem. Your comment, though, expresses beautifully how undergraduate education is misunderstood by so many people as necessarily a job training thing. Ideally, it shouldn’t be viewed that way.
I’ll tell ya … the kids who study Philosophy? Those cats are very well educated people. I’ve not ever run into a single person with a BA in Philo who isn’t a smarty. You have to learn to think very critically, thoughtfully and abstractly, and also learn to write and express yourself exceedingly well, to get by in any decent Philo dep’t. Those skills are useful all over the place, and incidentally, if you’re looking for examples of the practical, those kids tend to do very well on the LSAT and in law school. I know this; more than a handful of them kicked my a** in law school.
But, with all of that, there are very few “Philosophy Jobs” out there. Without question, it is the path of the PhD and the academy, and Philosophy departments tend to be small and underfunded, so the “slots” are few at that.
Still, if one of my kids ever expressed interest in Philosophy, I’d respond by telling them “Go!”
Anyone who doesn’t understand that just doesn’t get it. It’s not relative; they’re just wrong. Sorry.
Totally agree with @MiddleburyDad2 re: philosophy majors. See the articles above. I know a few recently minted philosophy majors who are doing quite nicely both in business and in fully funded with generous stipend PhD programs at prestigious universities. They have very bright futures.
The cost of college today is such that if a bachelor’s degree (in any major) did not give any advantage in the job market, most people who do not come from very wealthy families would find it very difficult to justify the cost of attendance.
Also, the skills learned and practiced in college (again, in any major) like reading, writing, research, thinking are at least theoretically applicable to a wide range of jobs (whether major-specific or major-agnostic). An employer looking for bachelor’s degree holders may be hoping to find employees with a higher level of such skills than high school graduates are likely to have (although some employers may just be looking for higher credentials for no good reason).
Your philosophy example falls right into this point. Philosophy may be one of the better majors for learning and practicing thinking skills in both the humanistic and logical realms, so it may be one of the better majors for preparing for major-agnostic jobs that require higher level thinking skills.
I totally agree with both @doschicos and @MiddleburyDad2. The most intelligent person I know, holds a Philosophy undergrad degree from Stanford. He is a law professor.
Personally, intro to Philosophy and Ethics were the hardest courses I have ever taken.
My first point on that post was intended to address a problem I have noted here on CC. Posters often talked about liberal arts and how these majors teach critical thinking. Does that imply non liberal art majors are not getting that magical dust? Do some liberal arts majors do a better job of it than other liberal arts majors? Conner’s article is an attempt to quantify this perception, and the results are much more nuanced than most of us want to believe.
My second link was an attempt to open up discussion on the point you are making, but not many posters seem interested to go there.
Philosophy and computer science are among the most difficult of majors. I would also add economics, engineering, physics, and math to that list. I am not surprised to see students switch out of them into something more accommodative. Here is an interesting take on the problem from the perspective of an economist: http://conversableeconomist.blogspot.com/2011/11/grade-inflation-and-choice-of-major.html
@MiddleburyDad2 And I would be fine with one of my daughter’s majoring in psychology or philosophy as well but they would understand that both are a foundation for further study, be it law or further specialization.
Part of of my first post in this thread was a response to a linked article that dinged “counseling psychologist” as a dead end $30k job. I felt he was scaring folks away from psychology. I’m pro psychology if you have a plan.
To my knowledge, there is no such thing. There are counsellors without credentials, licensed clinical counsellors, and clinical psychologist, each with a different point on the pay scale. And all have a place but the latter requires five to seven years of postgraduate work. Psychology is a also great minor for nearly any field and as you pointed out a great UG major for other fields such as law.
