Don’t see posters saying that undergrad should be vocational training. Agree that it is an opportunity to learn and grow. But there have been several articles on the importance of having some marketable skills as well. That first job, in auto finance, was achieved by having other skills and work experience. Not the degree in Ancient mediterranean civilizations.
I thought this was kind of funny re: the Tom Friedman article. http://www.thedailybanter.com/2014/02/tom-friedman-writes-worlds-most-pointless-article-on-getting-a-job-at-google/
You can acquire marketable skills in college by getting internships, work experience, or taking some practical classes. My D took accounting, stats and Econ electives. She worked in an office over the summers. She was a German/Art History major and she got a job at a foundation that gives grants to art museums.
If a student has no strong interest in anything in particular and needs to pay off loans, I agree with the “go practical” advice. What I don’t agree with is the pressure on everyone to major in three or four areas of market-oriented study or it’s a “waste” or “basketweaving.” I also find the assumption that taking a couple of low-level humanities classes is just fine and no one need bother studying these subjects at the upper levels. (I’m not saying you think this, but I smile at the, “Oh, my kid had to take Lit 1 so he’s well-rounded” thing.)
I wonder if the Ancient Mediterranean Civilizations major made the effort to pursue meaningful internships and summer jobs in organizations of interest.
I think many overestimate the major and underestimate the importance of the non-academic side of the resume and skill set in seeking gainful employment after graduation.
Not sure if we can link a pdf, but read the burning glass article on “the art of employment: How liberal arts Graduates Can Improve their Labor Market Prospects”. I’ll try to link it http://burning-glass.com/wp-content/uploads/BGTReportLiberalArts.pdf?platform=hootsuite
But yes, of course liberal arts degrees have value. http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/22/opinion/sunday/to-write-software-read-novels.html?ref=opinion&_r=1
@jym626, then the kid had a happy outcome. Why the assumption that he should not have majored in something he enjoyed/was good at if he didn’t use it directly in the first job post-grad? If the undergraduate degree lacks value unless it directly correlates to the post-grad job, then that implies the attitude that indeed, college is primarily vocational in nature. Or am I missing something?
Yes, you are missing something, IMO. Have you had a chance to look at the articles linked above? There seems to be an assumption that students who major in STEM or other “vocational” degrees (I find that tasteless, but thats JMO) don’t also take lots of other interesting classes in the humanities, languages, history, econ, you name it. Most of the STEM kids are pretty well rounded. Well, I can speak anecdotally from an N of 2. 3, if you count DH. So if a student selects a less “marketable” major (and this comes from a person who was a psych/biopsych double major, btw), if they plan to enter the job market after undergrad, it helps to have other skill sets.
As for the student whose first job was in auto finance, (it was not a he by the way-- interesting stereotyped assumption), she got her job with her other past work experience and skill sets. And it wasn’t a job she particularly wanted. It was a job she got. So not sure it qualifies as a “happy” outcome. But yes, she got a job.
Agree with jym about the use of “vocational” with STEM majors who are college graduates. It often seems to be a subtle putdown. Engineering for instance is a profession. Examples of vocational degrees would be more along the lines of cosmetology, medical billing,etc. And there’s certainly nothing wrong with vocational degrees.
When Argonauts went after the Golden Fleece I believe they financed their ship. So the education in Ancient Mediterranean Civilizations may be highly applicable to automotive finance.
@jym26, you are attributing “assumptions” to me that I don’t have. I never have said that STEM degrees are vocational or held them in contempt. You were the one who expressed puzzlement as to why someone would choose a non-practical major. You set up the dichotomy, not me.
re my gender faux pas: I assumed that your "son’s friend’ was another boy. So sorry.
I have a degree in Classics and I must say- it’s been more useful to me professionally than my MBA (although the MBA is clearly what got me hired in a couple of different situations).
Basically the recommendation to liberals arts majors is to build up skills in one of eight specific fields of business or computing. If you are going to do that, why mot major in those fields to begin with?
Because, @Zinhead, you can develop those skills without having to major in the field. Also, many liberal arts schools may not have majors in some of those areas. That doesn’t mean you can’t develop the skill set.
And @NJSue, I never said you held them in contempt. Somebody else said that. That said, you did talk about the implication that college can primarily be vocational in nature. What majors were you referring to? Am thinking not ancient Mediterranean civilizations.
“Examples of vocational degrees would be more along the lines of cosmetology, medical billing,etc.”
So do you think that these vocational degrees promote intellectual development comparable to liberal arts and engineering programs? Maybe you share my “bias.”
@jym626 - If you are going to enter the field of computer programming, wouldn’t it be better to get a four degree in that field rather than study a liberal arts field, and then supplant that degree with some post-graduate classes?
Here is an article from 2015 the issue.
This does not seem to be the optimal way to approach a college education.
I’m not sure which side of the fence you’re arguing on @Zinhead. There are also majors and minors - that’s perfectly acceptable option as well, or double majors.
Game Design has much less to do with Computer Science and more to do with Creative Writing. I know, I am a published game designer and my top math course ever was Intro to Stats. I can program a little (BASIC), but game design was only a programming thing back in the early 80s when the same guy did it all. (maybe for some small start-up phone app types now, but certainly not for a major title).
The major is simply an attempt by the college system to take financial advantage of kids hoping to break into the business. The reality is that depending upon what you want to do in the game design business, you may or may not even need a degree. Most of the gifted programmers I worked with had taken some courses and were proficient with math. However, few of them actually had computer science degrees. Those hiring in the business are more interested in your creativity and ability to program (for programmers, of course) than whether you have a degree or what that degree is in.
So yes, this degree is really worthless in and of itself. Sure some of the coursework will help broaden a kid’s horizons, but that could be done with just about any degree.
As mentioned by some others above…the degree and major can often get you in the door in some fields. My BS is in a liberal art. By itself, it would not help in getting many jobs. The fact that I have real experience is what gets me hired. I have definitely missed out on some opportunities because my degree didn’t fit a preconceived ideal candidate. Their loss.
Vocational degrees provide an education in a particular field of study. They have an important place in educating lots of people. I don’t get all worried about what is providing more intellectual development. I figure people can decide for themselves what they need and want to study. Any type of decent instruction will supply some level of intellectual stimulation.
This is what happens when we narrow our views to a few anecdotes in our lives.
If anyone actually said STEM kids can’t be rounded, I don’t remember it. In fact, imo/ime, the best engineers I’ve known are quite rounded, with breadth and depth. Maybe not in ancient civ, but in plenty of respects.
But if they’re not hiding under a rock, why is it so easy to assume lib arts kids are, that they’re narrow, impractical, self defeating? This is very much about the individual, her oomph and drive, vision, determination, and more.
And rather than calling some studies vocational, the term many use is “pre-professional.”