To quote a girl who left Yale, the Ivies are “stifling to the parts of a human you’d call a soul.” I am at Penn but I hate it. The culture is way too preprofessional and cutthroat and I feel like no one is real. Don’t get me wrong, I met a few nice people while I was there who are great, but overall I want a more supportive student body and one that doesn’t make me feel like crap everyday because I’m not a billionaire or the next Elon Musk. Am I crazy for leaving and wanting more happiness or should I stick it out? Does anyone have any experience with leaving the Ivies if it’s making you unhappy? I know a lot of people like me who are struggling with self-acceptance and depression/anxiety after attending these schools. I just feel like it was all a facade.
Opinions vary. The author of Excellent Sheep, a former Yale professor, writes his impressions regarding a few of the Ivies in this passage, for example:
I’d question the use of “notoriously,” but the rest of the quotation seems to serve as an opinion worth consideration, particularly since its essence appears to align with your own impressions.
Do what makes you happy. Your health and happiness far exceeds some number of spots on a college ranking.
I know someone very well who transferred from a USNWR T30 school last year for much the same reason. They found the preponderance of students (not all) wealthy and inauthentic and sheep-like. They did not feel like they would grow at all as a person in that environment. They transferred to a top public university and find the experience much more real and authentic and enriching. Their first semester (spring) was a little slow in terms of getting integrated, though they still liked it much better. Now they are involved in about 4 major work/social groups, have lots of friends, and are totally loving it. They are incredibly happy they made the decision.
You are never crazy for moving past something that is making you miserable (school, relationships, jobs, location, etc.). I could see Penn being great for some students but not many others. It is preprofessional. It is very urban. The academics are great and the students very capable. One could also say that about Dickinson, Pitt, Lehigh, Holy Cross, Wellesley, William & Mary, and dozens of other schools in the same general region, where you’d likely be a strong transfer applicant.
Look at it this way. Students often choose a college when they are very young. They are still growing, developing, and, very importantly, learning who they are. It sounds like you are growing and becoming much more self-aware about who YOU are what makes YOU happy and who the kind of people are who make YOU your best self. (As teens, people are naturally more focused on what others think they “should” be.) So if a different school is a better choice for YOU, well then that’s fine. And know you are definitely not the only one. At that other T30 school I mentioned, a substantial minority felt the same way.
So think about what works for you, what makes you your best, happiest, most authentic self, trust yourself, and embrace your decision with a positive, forward-looking attitude. That seems like a great recipe for happiness and success (however defined). Good luck!
No, you’re not crazy, but you should not be making any knee-jerk decisions. For instance, what year are you? Are the academics meeting your needs, or is this more of a social life (or fit) problem? You never mention the actual classes, so I am guessing that it is the environment you don’t like. Don’t get me wrong. Sometimes a bad fit is good enough reason to transfer. On the other hand, lots of students have first semester or even first year adjustment problems. It took me half a year to find my group in college, and then I had a blast.
That said, yes, people leave Ivies. Yes, people sometimes arrive at an Ivy (choosing it solely because it was an Ivy) and find out that it is a terrible fit. Still others are stunned when they arrive and find out that what they had pictured (an institution dedicated to educating young minds) does not at all match reality (ginormous classes, inaccessible profs, intense focus on research and graduate students).
Research by Dale and Krueger found that students who are accepted to Ivies but choose to go elsewhere have no difference in outcomes (the exception to this is URMs who attend elite schools), so you’re not in any real risk if you do leave. That said, again, think carefully about why you want to leave. If you are finishing up your very first semester, maybe give it some time, give it another chance, give it the ol’ college try!
Thank you for your comments everyone. I think another part of it was inaccessible profs, the INTENSE club recruitment scene (that’s right, you can’t just a join a club at Penn, you have to apply and go through a rigorous application process to get in), and just the entitled sense of kids there. I’m just nervous that it will open up more job opportunities and I won’t be as successful when I graduate, a concern that is mitigated by the fact that there is no difference in outcomes who were accepted to Ivy League schools. It’s still weighing on me though so anyone else who knows someone struggling with the same thing, send them here!
Where are you thinking of transferring? I would research up and down, talk to lots of students, profs, etc… The grass isn’t always greener.
With respect to others who have had similar concerns regarding their school of choice, this reflection from then candidate, now Massachusetts governor, Charlie Baker seems apposite. When asked by The Boston Globe to take the Proust Questionnaire, he responded as follows:
Q: What is your greatest regret?
A: Not going to Hamilton College. I never really felt comfortable at Harvard.
Surprised to read the inital Yale quote. Seems they go to great lengths to take care of the students.
I wouldn’t think that description wouldn’t hold true for Brown either.
If you’re not happy why would you stay if you have options?
You were smart enough to get in so I’m sure you’ll be fine wherever you land.
The obsession with the Ivies baffles me when there are so many amazing colleges out there.
Good luck.
If you like the general Philly area, take the train to Bryn Mawr, Haverford, and Swarthmore to check out academic neer-peers that have very different vibes. Because of the Quaker exchange, you could even try classes at one or more of those to see if you do fit in better.
One tried and true escape-from-the-wrong-place option is to take a leave of absence. While on the leave you would have time to think about and explore some other opportunities. Maybe you would decide to return after your leave, maybe you would find a much better place to finish up.
My big college regret is that I didn’t take a leave when I was feeling burned out and directionless. Time off would have been a good thing for me.
@happymomof1 has a great point about doing academic exchanges at the Quaker colleges https://www.college.upenn.edu/quaker-consortium. You can also take a break from Penn for a semester if you can find credits they will accept back from another school - maybe you could do a whole semester at Haverford? Can you manage study abroad? Breaks like that can make a bad fit palatable until you graduate.
I know Penn’s ways and I completely hear you about the club scene. Penn fosters that attitude and it’s extremely toxic - all relationships and community involvement become transactional. For Penn, being involved in community is only worthwhile if it improves one’s own marketability. It’s an institutional culture problem.
Since you are in the center of the city, the other option is to get involved off-campus, go out, do things separate from Penn.
I’m surprised about that quote from Yale too, but no doubt that Penn is preprofessional, and if you are in Wharton or an Econ major there is not way out of it.
Are you a First year? Is this First semester?
Are you lower income? (Many top privates have 50% full payors or more, so the income social issue differential is not going to go away if you transfer to say, a top LAC.).
Good input. I’d like to offer another perspective. Think about your sense of self. If the fact that you are not “a billionaire” bothers someone that’s their problem. If you LET that bother you I’d challenge you to not externalize the problem and look within yourself for an answer (I know…easier said than done) instead of potentially running away from it since if you don’t resolve it now the next time it surfaces, and it will, you won’t be able to deal with it.
agreed! “Transaction” is the best way to put it. People only want to be with you if you can do something for them and the school allows that. I completely understand the perspective shift that might be required to stay here but I’m definitely leaving. The school doesn’t make the person, the person makes the school! Thanks for the input everyone.
I don’t think you’re crazy at all. I would suggest taking a hard look at LACs. I think you might find the atmosphere more supportive and congenial. One of the main reasons I chose Holy Cross was for its blend of great academics with a supportive and authentic (as you say, “real”) atmosphere. Nearby Haverford in PA (which seems to genuinely lean into its Quaker legacy and emphasis on community) could be worth checking out, or Bryn Mawr if a woman’s college is an option. On the Ivy level, did you ever look at Brown? I know Penn in particular has a reputation of being very pre-professional, and on that continuum I would put Brown at the other end. Good luck!
My father didn’t like Harvard. But I think OP needs a better idea of what’s wrong. In a few years, he’ll be facing the very “professional” world he’s uncomfortable with now. (Even if he transfers to a state public.) And there is SES diversity at Penn. And wealthy, driven kids at many LACs.
And that Yale prof referred to above is not universally respected as an authority. In fact, many feel he has a grudge. Don’t assume he offers any special insights or truths.
Adding. There are so many clubs at Penn, many that aren’t competitive to get into/dont need to filter you to ensure you have the experience. Many just social, a good range of service opportunities, etc.
If you’re a freshman, this is about a few months ar Penn. Make your own decision. But make sure you’ve explored what really is available.
Years ago, I chose my college because it had the best program for what I was doing. (Easy choice there - one of 2.) I was involved on campus but socially, but it was never the right place for me. I seriously thought about transferring., I decided against it because the reason for leaving would be that I didn’t want to be there. I felt like it should be that I wanted to be somewhere else. In other words, the call of another place needed to be stronger than the desire to get out. Of course, I could have worked at finding the place that called me but I didnt, in part because of academics.
I took a year abroad. I got involved in a couple of non school things in the city where the school was. I had friends that I did things with. In other words, I made a life in which school was simply one of the things I did. It worked fine. When I graduated, my life in a new city looked similar except that I worked instead of going to school.
I can honestly say that I would not have wanted my child to have that kind of college experience and really urged him to explore fit, but this is to say that you have options beyond transferring. And that if you do transfer, you should be very intentional about it.
Of course you can transfer if you are unhappy… and if your grades have been solid so far, probably you will be able to transfer to a very good college.
But the question for anyone considering transferring is always, is it the college or is it you? Often it is at least a combination of the two.
People make their own happiness. What would make you happier at school? You ought to see a counselor at Penn and talk about your “depression/ anxiety.” These are big issues that you need to address.
It is possible that the problems that plague you at Penn would follow you anywhere else if you do not address them directly.
And the stereotypes you cited about Penn kids? Stereotype is all they are. Many kids there will match the stereotype, but many will not! I have known some wonderfully kind, down-to-earth, quirky kids who went to Penn. Everyone would call them “real” and they were more intellectual than preprofessional. And not rich. Try to get to know the people around you and value them as people. Do activities that may attract people with similar interests and personalities to yours. You will find some real friends. And that will help you feel “connected” to your school.
Also be aware that, not all, but some people you consult who do not go to an Ivy may cheer for you to transfer because they could not get into Penn and your stated unhappiness there makes them feel better. So a chorus of agreement does not equal validation that Penn stinks.
You have an amazing educational opportunity that can yield lifelong benefits both in terms of your learning now and opportunities in the future. So see if you can find happiness where you are.
If, even after becoming more socially connected and working out any underlying issues with therapy, you still feel the college is not a “fit,” of course you can transfer. People can get great experiences, and have super outcomes, from many, many colleges. It is more about the person than the name of the college.
Wishing you good luck in finding much happiness, whether at Penn or another college.
Regarding the suggestion that the quoted professor may harbor acrimony toward his former school, note that he stated Yale “probably deserves its reputation as being the best among elite universities (as distinct from liberal arts colleges) at nurturing creativitiy and intellectual independence” (emphasis added).
If the high SES skew is bothersome, note that it exists at other highly selective private colleges including LACs. Even some state flagships have a strong high SES skew.
OP, I appreciate the sentiment above that "you need to figure out what part of the problem is you and what part is the college ". I can say in my case, having found a way for a not great fit school to work for me, then subsequently going to a graduate program that was a great fit, I was able to conclude after the fact that I had probably taken too much of the “blame” for my unhappiness with my undergraduate institution. Some was mine, for sure, but when I had the chance to experience what was for me a truly good fit, far less than I had burdened myself with. It had been impossible to isolate myself from the more toxic elements of the culture as they were pervasive. So do the work to figure out if you can make it work, but don’t let it get the better of you either.
I will also add the SES disparity is common but how it manifests itself can differ. It can be particularly rough at urban schools (as a generalization ) and at schools that have competitive cultures (where wealth can be the pile some choose dominate.)